From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1997 #152 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Tuesday, June 10 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 152 ane table ronde sur Mari Re: ane Akk. Ventive ane E. Weidner, AfO 19:138 ???? Re: ane Akk. Ventive Re: ane Akk. Ventive Re: ane principal parts (Was: Akk. Ventive) ane New Article ane George Reisner ane Thanks for WeidnerReference ane The Ancient World on Television ane Transeuphratene on-line Re: ane Akk. Ventive ane Re: AEGEANET The Odyssey -- On the serious side ane J.J. Collins Re: ane George Reisner (fwd) Re: ane George Reisner ane Seeking White Walls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:02:28 -0100 From: vaillant@monza.u-strasbg.fr (Vaillancourt, Denyse) Subject: ane table ronde sur Mari L'URA 1557-CRESPO du CNRS (Cultures régionales et sociétés proche-orientales, IVe-Ier millénaires) annonce à tous les membres du réseau ANCIENT NEAR EAST la: Table Ronde : travaux récents sur et autour de Mari Strasbourg, 20-21 juin 1997 Palais universitaire, Salle Fustel Programme Vendredi 20 juin Fouilles et prospections 14 h Jean Margueron : Introduction et résultats nouveaux des dernières campagnes de fouilles 14 h 30 Bernard Geyer et Jean-Yves Monchambert : L'environnement de Mari 15 h Discussion Approches techniques et archéométriques 15 h 15 Mahmoud Bendakir : L'action de conservation conduit à Mari 15 h 45 Pause 16 h 15 Odile Deschêsne : L'utilisation du bitume à Mari et résultats des analyses 16 h 45 Juan Luis Montero : Projet d'étude typologique et archéométallurgique des bronzes de Mari 17 h Eric Coqueugniot : Etude tracéologique sur les silex de "Pec" 17 h 30 Gérard Nicolini : Les ors de Mari 18 h Discussion Samedi 21 juin Etudes iconographiques 9 h Isabelle Weygand : Les terres cuites de Mari : directions de recherche 9 h 30 Agnès Spycket : La statuaire de Mari 10 h Dominique Beyer : La glyptique de Mari au IIIe millénaire : état de la question 10 h 30 Pause 10 45 Béatrice Muller : Nouvelles observations sur les peintures du palais de Mari 11 h 15 Discussion Mari et sa région : approche historique 11 h 30 Olivier Rouault : Les relations entre Terqa et Mari 12 h Maria Grazia Rouault-Masetti : Mari et le Moyen- Euphrate au Bronze Récent et à l'âge du Fer : problèmes historiques 12 h 30 Discussion Approches archéologiques 14 h Nina Pons-Gasche : La poterie du début de l'époque des Shakkanakku au chantier F de Mari 14 h 30 Marylou Jean-Marie : Tombes et nécropoles de Mari 15 h Jean Margueron : Dernier état des recherches sur l'urbanisme et l'architecture à Mari. Conclusion. --------------------------- Denyse Vaillancourt URA 1557 Palais universitaire F-67084 Strasbourg cedex tél. 03 88 25 97 76 fax 03 88 35 65 23 ************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:28:04 -0700 (PDT) From: cuibono@garnet.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: ane Akk. Ventive the fact that the supine ends in -um, though perhaps later analyzed by native speakers at fitting the second or fourth declensional pattern, probably has more to do with its relationship to the indeclinable sanskrit infinitive which similarly shows the formation of stem plus -tum. i suspect, and others may correct me, that the declinability of the supine is a result of this reanalysis, and led to its ambiguous existence within both paradigms. chris hoffman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:26:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Dick Subject: ane E. Weidner, AfO 19:138 ???? I apologize for (mis)using the group like this, but desperation..... I'm stored away in a small town in Upstate New York and am finishing reviewing the galley sheets of a book mss. I don't have access to a research library readily available. My hawk-eyed editor caught an incomplete biographical reference. I refer to E. Weidner, AfO 19(1959/60) p. 138. The editor wants to know: 1....The name of the article 2....The inclusive page numbers (i.e. 130-144) I have looked up Weidner in Borger but cannot tell from his entry. It may be "Ein astrologischer Sammeltext..." but that would mean that that article went from pp. 105-140, a bit long for an AfO article. This is literally the last element in my proofing the galleys. May Nisaba bless he/she who aids me. Please just respond to me (DICK@SIENA.EDU). Michael Dick Siena College Loudonville, NY 12211 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:42:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sara Mandell (REL)" Subject: Re: ane Akk. Ventive I wish to correct a statement made in may last posting. When I said that deponents have lost their active usage, I meant to say they have lost their active forms. The passive and/or reflexive forms are in fact treated as if they were active. Sara Mandell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:46:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sara Mandell (REL)" Subject: Re: ane Akk. Ventive Chris I suspect that you are correct, and you have made a very important point. Sara On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 cuibono@garnet.berkeley.edu wrote: > the fact that the supine ends in -um, though perhaps later analyzed by > native speakers at fitting the second or fourth declensional pattern, > probably has more to do with its relationship to the indeclinable > sanskrit infinitive > which similarly shows the formation of stem plus -tum. i suspect, and > others may correct me, that the declinability of the supine is a result of > this reanalysis, and led to its ambiguous existence within both paradigms. > > chris hoffman > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:01:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sara Mandell (REL)" Subject: Re: ane principal parts (Was: Akk. Ventive) Alan, Principle parts are an invention of linguists, but not modern ones. They were delineated by Grammarians in Classical antiquity. Modern scholars generally accept the conventions so established unless we find them to be inherently wrong. So, yes they are part of a convention, an established linguistic "code" that enables anyone who understands it to conjugate a given verb in every tense, mood, and voice. Unless or until a better convention is established, there is no basis for altering this one. Why fix what something that works? Sara Mandell On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Allen Adler wrote: > > Sara Mandell writes with great authority on the matter of the > Latin fourth principal part and what it *really* is. Naively, > it seems to me that the whole concept of principal parts > is an invention of linguists. Accordingly, "rightness" > or "wrongness" cannot be predicated of it, since it is > merely a convention. One can only say whether one is > applying a convention correctly (assuming that the convention itself > is unambiguous). > > If Sara Mandell wants to say that the convention she describes > has certain advantages over the convention she criticizes, > that is a matter one can reasonably discuss. But that is a different > matter from saying that one convention is correct and the other not. > > Skeptically, > Allan Adler, > who took only one year of Latin, over the protests of all around > him that it was a waste of time, and who has continued to study > it by himself, but who would nevertheless have deeply resented > having been forced to study it for 7 or 8 years whether he liked > it or not. > > adler@pulsar.cs.wku.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 11:18:34 -0500 (EST) From: Jim West Subject: ane New Article Colleagues, We are pleased to announce that a new article is available in the Journal of Biblical Studies at http://web.infoave.net/~jwest follw the "articles" link. This is a good time to remind you that submissions are welcome, as are book suggestions. Yours, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Adjunct Professor of Bible, Quartz Hill School of Theology Managing Editor, The Journal of Biblical Studies http://web.infoave.net/~jwest/index.htm jwest@highland.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:43:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Holly An' Oyster" Subject: ane George Reisner A friend of mine asks the following question: Does anyone know the name of the 'king' (uncertain whether this means a pharaoh or a Nubian king) whose sarcophagus was lost when the Beatrice, the ship carrying it to England, sank? The piece was excavated by George Reisner. The person asking has already done a good deal of searching, and has had no luck digging up the name (no pun intended...). Any help would be appreciated! Holly ===================================================================== "We work hard. Archaeology is mostly a sore back and aching fingers. The romance gets into it afterward, when the newstape boys write their stories." --Robert Silverberg, *Across a Billion Years* ===================================================================== Holly An' Oyster Department of Classics SUNY-Buffalo oyster@acsu.buffalo.edu 712 Clemens Hall H(716)885-3788 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 13:49:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Dick Subject: ane Thanks for WeidnerReference I thank those who provided me with the Weidner reference. I'm just posting this so that others will not have to spend time looking it up. Thanks again. Michael Dick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:19:57 -0400 From: David Meadows Subject: ane The Ancient World on Television The Ancient World on Television (North America) June 9 - 15, 1997 Compiled from Various Sources (All times Eastern) _____________________________________________________________________ Next Installment on or about June 15 (Don't forget Father's Day!) _____________________________________________________________________ After much ado (and much proselytizing by Mac owners, which always reminds me of something the radio suggests in that oft-repeated [at our house, anyways] video, The Brave Little Toaster: "If only we were all wiener dogs, then all our problems would be solved." 8^)), coming to you live from a Windows 95 desktop in sunny Hamilton, Ontario: *****Wednesday, June 11 9.00 p.m. DISCU Discover Magazine Secret Senses A variegated look at 'sensitivity', this programme includes a segment on the use of remote sensing devices by archaeologists and paleontologists. *****Thursday, June 12 9.00 p.m. A&E Ancient Mysteries(R) The Great Sphinx A look at that other monument of Gizeh which 'outsiders' like to write theories about *****Friday, June 13 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom Treehouse People Part of the 'Smithsonian Expedition' specials, this episode looks at the Korowai folk, who still practice ritual cannibalism *****Saturday, June 14 6.00 p.m. DISCU Discover Magazine Secret Senses Repeat of Thursday's programme 7.00 p.m. A&E Mysteries of the Bible The Ten Commandments Deconstructing the ten commandments, apparently so we shouldn't feel so bad when we break them *****Sunday, June 15 7.00 p.m. A&E Ancient Mysteries(R) Witches Witches through the ages ... 7.30 p.m. TVO Archaeology Athens:Daughter of Egypt? The Bernal episode ... 11.00 p.m. A&E Mysteries of the Bible Scarlet Women of the Bible Oft repeated ... _____________________________________________________________________ Channel Guide A&E The Arts and Entertainment Channel (cable) DISCU Discovery Channel (U.S. Cable) DISCC Discovery Channel (Canadian Cable) FAM The Family Channel (pay-extra cable -- Canadian version) HIST The History Channel (cable) PBS Public Broadcasting System (U.S. National Schedule, where possible) TLC The Learning Channel (cable) TVO TV Ontario (Ontario public broadcasting) ____________________________________________________________________ Note on TLC and A&E: TLC's evening schedule is regularly repeated on a 3-hour basis (i.e. something on at 8.00 p.m. will be rebroadcast at 11.00, something at 8.30 will be rebroadcast at 11.30, etc.); on A&E, the Thursday night programming of interest to this list is rebroadcast at 1.00 a.m. and 2.00 a.m. respectively ____________________________________________________________________ Note 2: If you would like to receive this listing as email and aren't subscribed to the numerous lists it is posted to, drop me a line at: dmeadows@inforamp.net and I'll add you to the list (on the next Sunday evening) ____________________________________________________________________ Copyright (c) David Meadows 1997. Feel free to distribute this to your pals, students, teachers, etc., but please include this notice. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:53:28 -0500 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Transeuphratene on-line Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. ============================================================== elayi-j@infonie.fr A new WEB (English and French versions) has been created for all scholars specialized in Near Eastern studies, Transeuphratene in the Iron Age III/Persian Period. The main categories currently used include : (1) Latest informations related to the research activities on Transeuphratene during the Iron Age III/Persian Period ; (2) Activities of our Association in Paris "ASPEP" (=Association pour la recherche sur la Syrie-Palestine à l'Epoque Perse) ; (3) Conferences, colloquiums and meetings that we organize in Paris ; (4) Our publications (Transeuphratene, Supplements to Transeuphratene, ...);(5) Latest specific bibliography and works in progress in this field of research. In particular, you can find all informations related with our 4th International Conference in Paris on next November 20-22, 1997, on the following topic : "Transeuphratene in the Persian Period : Economy, Trade and Monetary instruments". J. Elayi, Editor of Transeuphratene 92 rue de Lourmel, 75015 Paris, France FAX : 33 1 45 58 55 68 E-mail : elayi-j@infonie.fr http://www.infonie.fr/public_html/scientechnix/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 22:18:54 +0200 From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: Re: ane Akk. Ventive I am not a specialist on this field, but to my knowledge in Indoeuropean linguistics the connection between latin supinum, sanskrit infinitive and analogous formations in other languages is well established from the last century (but 'We in America do not idealize senior professors'!). I have at hand the Grammatica Latina storica e comparativa, by Vittore Pisani, Torino 1952, p. 299 (I will not translate it in English because who knows Latin understands of course written Italian): 'I supini ... sono l'accusativo e il dativo di temi astratti in -tu- designanti l'azione cui si riferisce il verbo ... al supino lt. in -tum corrispondono esattamente il supino baltoslavo ... e l'infinito scr. in -tum ... Altri infiniti forma il scr. da questi temi in -tu-, p.es. dativali ... genetivali ...'. That is, latin supina were declined from prehistoric times. At 10.46 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Chris > >I suspect that you are correct, and you have made a very important point. > >Sara > >On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 cuibono@garnet.berkeley.edu wrote: > >> the fact that the supine ends in -um, though perhaps later analyzed by >> native speakers at fitting the second or fourth declensional pattern, >> probably has more to do with its relationship to the indeclinable >> sanskrit infinitive >> which similarly shows the formation of stem plus -tum. i suspect, and >> others may correct me, that the declinability of the supine is a result of >> this reanalysis, and led to its ambiguous existence within both paradigms. >> >> chris hoffman >> >> > > > ============ Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:54:59 -0400 (EDT) From: BisnoCC@aol.com Subject: ane Re: AEGEANET The Odyssey -- On the serious side Not entirely true. When I worked for a museum I got constant inquiries from TV and movie studio gophers, usually on Thursday afternoon and they needed it Friday, or Friday afternoon and they needed it Saturday. Sometimes they were almost in tears. How can you tell them everything about ancient costumes and interiors in an hour? So they do what they can and go ahead anyway. In all those years, only one TV show changed a script on my advice - Quincy. But they did change the title from "Mummy Dearest" to something else. J. Bisno Culver City ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:58:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Gross Subject: ane J.J. Collins Greetings List Members, I am trying to find out who the author is of _The Scepter and the Star: The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature_ (Doubleday, 1995). Now, for those who say that the answer is John J. Collins, my next question would be, "Which John J. Collins?" Based on the subject matter, I would assume that the author is John Joseph Collins (b. 1946) who teaches at the University of Chicago Divinity School. However, according to the copyright page of the book itself, the author is John James Collins (b. 1938). I am not familiar with this latter author, but based on his other works, he appears to be an anthropologist who writes on the phenomonology of religion, and so it would not be unreasonable to assume that he authored such a book. Checking RLIN, I find that about 1/3 of the libraries that carry this book attribute it to John James Collins, while the other 2/3 attribute it to John Joseph Collins. Can anyone clear this up for me? Thank you very much, andrew gross dept of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:07:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Holly An' Oyster" Subject: Re: ane George Reisner (fwd) In the efforts of fine-tuning my friend's question, I forward with permission this response from John Larson and then ask another question: - -----Forwarded text------ Date: 9 Jun 1997 14:20:37 U From: John Larson To: Holly An' Oyster Subject: Re: ane George Reisner Reply to: RE>ane George Reisner I think that there is some confusion of circumstances here. In his short biographical note for the British officer, Col. Richard William Howard-Vyse (1784-1853), in the back of SIGNS AND WONDERS UPON PHARAOH: A HISTORY OF AMERICAN EGYPTOLOGY (Chicago and London: The University of Chicago Press, 1964), pages 231-232, John A. Wilson mentions the loss of a royal sarcophagus in connection with the work of Vyse who excavated and measured at Giza from about 1835 on, sometimes working together with a British engineer named Perring. Referring to Vyse, Wilson says: "His expedition penetrated the Third Pyramid and discovered the fine basalt sarcophagus of Men-ku-Re. On the way to England, this piece was lost at sea when the ship went down off Spain in 1838." - -snipped- ok, my revised question is, does anyone know the name of the ship which was lost, which carried VYSE's find? I'm trying to find out if the question was incorrect, or if we should keep looking. thanx again, Holly ===================================================================== "We work hard. Archaeology is mostly a sore back and aching fingers. The romance gets into it afterward, when the newstape boys write their stories." --Robert Silverberg, *Across a Billion Years* ===================================================================== Holly An' Oyster Department of Classics SUNY-Buffalo oyster@acsu.buffalo.edu 712 Clemens Hall H(716)885-3788 - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu with SMTP;9 Jun 1997 13:12:58 U Received: (from md194@localhost) by asmar.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29184 for ane-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:44:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (qmailr@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.122]) by asmar.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29180 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:43:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7018 invoked by uid 31923); 9 Jun 1997 17:43:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:43:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Holly An' Oyster" Reply-To: "Holly An' Oyster" To: Ancient Near East list Subject: ane George Reisner Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Holly An' Oyster" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 20:25:48 AST From: Tom Simms Subject: Re: ane George Reisner On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:43:37 -0400 (EDT), oyster@acsu.buffalo.edu writes: > >A friend of mine asks the following question: > >Does anyone know the name of the 'king' (uncertain whether this means a >pharaoh or a Nubian king) whose sarcophagus was lost when the Beatrice, >the ship carrying it to England, sank? The piece was excavated by George >Reisner. P. 159 ff. in Edwards, _The Pyramids of Egypt_, tells that Reisner excavated Mycerinus' Valley Temple, recovering many valuable statues, but assigns (p. l62) Col. Howard Vyse as the excavator of Mycerinus' pyramid and the shipper of the stone sarcophagus to London where it was lost off Spain. The account also tells of a Saite restoration of the burial and of remains found there. The name of the vessel is not given. A briefer account is given of the loss of the sarcophagus in _The Atlas of Ancient Egypt_ by Baines and Malik, p. 163. and adds to the Saite restoration information. This is a start. Hope that helps. Tom Simms >The person asking has already done a good deal of searching, and >has had no luck digging up the name (no pun intended...). > >Any help would be appreciated! > >Holly > >===================================================================== >"We work hard. Archaeology is mostly a sore back and aching fingers. >The romance gets into it afterward, when the newstape boys write their >stories." > --Robert Silverberg, *Across a Billion Years* >===================================================================== >Holly An' Oyster Department of Classics SUNY-Buffalo >oyster@acsu.buffalo.edu 712 Clemens Hall H(716)885-3788 > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 01:23:00 GMT From: n.doyle1@genie.com Subject: ane Seeking White Walls This is a question I should have asked months ago, when I was first writing this young-adult novel. . . but now my agent has asked for a tad of fine-tuning, so I'm taking the opportunity to make any possible corrections. Naturally as I attempt this I'm some 350 miles away from the nearest accessible Egyptological library. Is there any data, or informed speculation, regarding the appearance of the Memphite structure known as "White Walls"? My questions are: 1) Do we have mention of White Walls dating to or predating Djoser, or any reason to suspect it existed during his reign? 2) Might it still have been standing, or a recongizeable ruin, duringthe Ramesside Period? (The novel takes place during the reigns of Djoser and Rameses II.) I should have many more questions, but right now this particularly bothers me; the rest would be, I fear, too imbedded in the story for me to fix easily, and no doubt I shall have to beg minor indulgance from the Egyptological community when (I'm being optimistic by not saying "if") the book comes out. But only minor, I hope. :) Thanks so much! - -- Noreen Noreen Doyle Graduate Student _in absentia_ Nautical Archaeology Program Texas A&M University Member: ARCE, EES, INA, SFWA n.doyle1@genie.com ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1997 #152 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html