From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #10 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Sunday, January 11 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 010 ane Tears of Joy Re: AW: ane The jwntjw as the oldest ancestor of the Arabs ane: Mount Zion ane Understanding the data (was: egyptian wigs) Re: ane: Mount Zion ane Egyptian embalmer's stone-knife ane: Rainbow; Response to D. Lorton; Aayko Eyma; C. Blatchley et. al. Re: Is: ane egyptian wigs ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa Re: ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa Re: ane: Rainbow; Response to D. Lorton; Aayko Eyma; C. Blatchley et. al. Re: ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa ane: Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) ane Mehqere Hag - Holiday Studies Re: ane: Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:17:52 +0200 From: Lloyd Thomas Subject: ane Tears of Joy Geraldine Pinch writes in her 'Magic in Ancient Egypt'(1994:24): "Atum-Ra used the sweat of his body to make other deities, but humanity sprang from the tears of joy wept by the creator when he was reunited with his children." (Shu and Tefnut). (British Museum Press. ISBN 0 7141 0979 1) Lloyd Thomas Cape Town ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:09:28 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: Re: AW: ane The jwntjw as the oldest ancestor of the Arabs Aayko wrote: > Point 4 seems very unlikely to me - very different glyph. Some connection to the Djed pillar as I myself stated is highly speculative, but I mentioned it, as an idea on this subject I once met. > while in the New Kingdom when > the borders and known lands were much more south, it > refered to the more Negroid people to the south, beyond > the 4th cataract, perhaps around Napata. In NK tombs, > the Iuntiu ARE depicted with negroid faces [!! versus point 3]. One should admit that such terms are subject over such long periods to historical alterations. Perhaps was the southern jwntjw group by the NK only of mythical relevance, the real, original, jwntjw in the south being by then extinct. As you say the term denoted peoples at the south border of Egypt. That border moving during the NK... I can bring the example of the keftjw, which is equivalated in the Canopus decree (greek version) with Phoenicia. Nobody would hold this meaning for keftjw also for the NK times. > But at any rate, I would say both terms most definately > were used for 'barbarians' outside the Egyptian territory. > (Contrary to point 2). > Well, my statement is slightly different. I imagine Egypt expanded after the Negade I period, south and north, at the expense of the jwntjw, driving them with its borders, to the south and the north. Perhaps the feast of smashing the jwntjw (jwntjw bashing) comemorates this event. > Both our sources are not very recent, so consulting > some recent handbook could be wise. Dear Aayko I agree with you in this point. > As to Iram Dhat al-'imad, Irem of the Pillars, I would agree > with locating it in NW Arabia versus Jemen. > It is VERY closely connected with 'Ad (that could be the > Oadites of Ptolemy) and Thamud (that Assyrian > inscriptions mention east of Palestine; idem Ptolemy). > A Nabatean inscription (2th c.) in Djabal Ramon (25 miles > east of Aqaba) mentions that this site was called 'rm - could > it mirror the same name? Ptolemy mentions a city called > Aramava in this area. The real crux with Arab historiography is, it has no inherent chronology upon which we can agree. So any attempts to identify Irem - that of the Pillars with anything remains hypothetic. The grounds why I preferr a high chronology for the Irem tales is the also hypothetical provenience of the semites from the Arab peninsula. At least some of this tales should have in this perspective a high age. Kind regards Banyai Michael Banyai@t-online-de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:35:56 +0200 From: Lloyd Thomas Subject: ane: Mount Zion I think the recovery of the Siloam Tunnel inscription is a conclusive argument for the Southwestern spur identification of ancient Zion. Lloyd Thomas Cape Town ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 06:08:15 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Understanding the data (was: egyptian wigs) On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:03, E Adams wrote (inter alia): > Herodotus states that all Egyptians shaved their heads, but we have so >many examples of short haired men in statues and art, that we can only >speculate that there was an especially bad plague of lice in his day. Besides >he said that the Colchians had black skin and woolly hair like the Egyptians, (snip) "...black skin and woolly hair like the Egyptians." ?? Alas. No doubt we shall soon again be seeing presented as fact the historical fiction that early Greek law was inspired by Egyptian law, with Herodotus cited in this case as well as the "source". After all, Herodotus did say that Solon (who lived a mere century and a half before him) had gone to visit the pharaoh Amasis in Egypt. Of course even Herodotus said that this alleged visit took place AFTER the great reforms of Solon. But we shouldn't let a little trivial contradiction like that get in the way of confirming that Egypt was the source for Attic law. Herodotus, presumably, just made a typo. Nor should we worry that the whole notion that Salon went to Egypt to study was invented by Plato. Plato states that the story is fictional, but that didn't stop it. Apparently the story just felt so good that it took on a life of its own, even the part about Atlantis, and accrued new refinements and clarifications as the years went on. By 700 years after the reforms of Solon, Plutarch is prepared to tell us the names of Solon's Egyptian teachers. Herodotus, Plutarch, my goodness, it's gotta be true, right? Obviously not. Likewise in regard to Herodotus and his characterization of the Colchians, who lived on the eastern coast of the Black Sea. I beg to differ with the manner in which E Adams has elected to express this characterization, because I believe it is a misreading of the evidence to claim that "melanchroes" is synonymous with "black". In a certain sense, the Greeks, no differently than we ourselves today, would consider Egyptians to be "people of color" (to use this modern term). And in that same sense, a substantial portion of the people in the world today who are most definitely NOT black would nonetheless be considered people of color. It would appear that the Greeks felt, not illogically, that climate was the cause of the color they perceived in Egyptians. In the mythological fiction of one of his dramas (_The Suppliants_), Aeschylus applies this understanding when he describes the return of descendants of an originally Greek family, exiled for several generations in Egypt, to Greece. Like Herodotus, Aeschylus uses a word with the same root from which our modern word melanin is derived and describes the returning family as a "dark, sun struck family" (melanthes helioktypon genos). Are we therefore to presume that these returning Greeks were black? Obviously not. Are we thus to presume that the Egyptians whom they had come to resemble by virtue of several generations in the Egyptian climate were black? Obviously not. Are we to presume that Herodotus, in saying that the Colchians resembled the Egyptians, was confirming that both the Colchians and the Egyptians were black? Obviously not. Herodotus also, by the way, used a word with that same root to assert that a pair of doves had an Egyptian origin since they were "dark" (melainai). A black dove, perhaps? Maybe in Atlantis. Which is where the notion of a black Egypt should be consigned as well. Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 06:09:09 -0500 (EST) From: Jay Hays Subject: Re: ane: Mount Zion Thanks for your post, George. Yes, it is quite reasonable that the central valley was a fair bit deeper. In fact, in that book by Avigad you can see some of the excavation zone in the Hebrew Quarter, going down to the antique levels -- several stories deep. Still, we are talking about a ridge off a hill that was relatively a little higher in relation to its base. But the top of the hill had a name as you know: "Moriah", at least from the time of the writer of the Chronicles. Why would the bit hanging down from it have a separate name as a mountain? Possible, maybe, but the early town was also said to have been called Jebus, Salem and Jerusalem. Who exactly called what Zion originally? I don't trust any of the "histories" as having much to do with the periods they refer to: they are not particularly well represented at Qumran. This makes one ask the value of the 2Sam5 reference that links the city of David to Zion. Is there any way to test its reliability given the wandering significance of Zion? Jay John J. Hays jhays@mail.com - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:38:09 +0200 From: Lloyd Thomas Subject: ane Egyptian embalmer's stone-knife Can anyone offer advice on the nature of the 'Ethiopian stone' that Herodotus reports (History, II:86) was used to make the abdominal incision in the embalming of wealthier clients? I have been unable to trace any earlier reference to the knife used to make the disemboweling incision. Later references seem to derive from Herodotus. Could the term 'Ethiopian' refer to the colour? If so, could this be an obsidian blade? If not, is it the source of this kind of stone? This would perhaps be a bigger problem to explain. The sacred cutting of the human body seems to have required the use of naturally occurring material; such as the flint-blade used for male circumcision (interestingly reflected both in the Moses episode of Exodus 4:25, and as a divine command in the Gilgal episode of Joshua 5:2,3). Any help? Lloyd Thomas Cape Town ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:26:32 -1000 From: Randall Larsen Subject: ane: Rainbow; Response to D. Lorton; Aayko Eyma; C. Blatchley et. al. David Lorton wrote: > Did I understand correctly that someone wants to equate iwntyw with a > name Irem? Do the two roots share a single consonant? In answering Lloyd Thomas objection to my hypothesis that one representation of the Eye of Horus was the double rainbow. I suggested that the Egyptians possibly brought their myth and ritual to Egypt from a far away land. In support of this conjecture Banyai Michael offered “a possibility:” > The cult of Re, whom you connect with the rainbow, centers in Heliopolis, whose > Egyptian name, Jwnw (Pillar-city), reminds one the predinastic asiatic jwntjw > people. Is it mere coincidence, encountering the name of the jwntjw > (Pillar-people) as that of the oldest ancestor of the Arabs, according to > themselves, the Irem, those of the pillar? Banyai’s conjecture was not presented as fact but as a tentative idea worthy of investigation. He has offered listmembers sources that we can follow up on if we like. He admits “the archaeological identification of the jwntjw or of the Irem is still lacking.” I do not presume to speak for Banyai Michael. However, in reply to the inquiry of David Lorton I will offer a first look at some philological data. I have yet to form a refutable hypothesis based on this preliminary survey--the matter is under study. iwn pillar psD light iwn skin hebrew 'or light 'or skin psD bow iwnt-bow [Pyramid Text 57a identifies it with the Eye of Horus] psD cloth nine weave iwn.t cloth [a cloth wig-cover?] psD spine Aayko Eyma’s considered reply to Banyai is being studied. Contrary to David Lortons claim: "that this thread is going nowhere” it appears to have generated some useful discussions on Egyptian and Arab origins, Egyptian myth, Flowing Cultural Borders, Egyptian Wigs, and of course Egyptian Weather. I would like to join the company of Michael Ventris and others who advanced hypotheses that did not tie with the departmental wisdom or their contemporaries and yet later succeeded. If I am going down a blind alley at least list members are pointing out some interesting sights along the way. Chuck Blatchley and others have offered some useful comments and support for the possibily of rainbows in parts of Egypt. May we hear from a resident of Egypt? I hoped to offer listmembers an original, authentic, and accurate hypothesis as a target to tilt at. The objections of Thomas, Lorton, and others are welcome. Please join the discussion and share with us your sources. I will try to add to the discussion of Kakosy’s conclusion that “tears became man” was a pessimistic tradition. I note that the tears represent both sadness on the part of the g-d that man had to be destroyed and joy that a new dispensation of life was to be established on the earth according to the texts. Just in, Lloyd Thomas, wrote> > Geraldine Pinch writes in her 'Magic in Ancient Egypt'(1994:24): > "Atum-Ra used the sweat of his body to make other deities, but humanity > sprang from the tears of joy wept by the creator when he was reunited > with his children." (Shu and Tefnut). > (British Museum Press. ISBN 0 7141 0979 1) I agree with the post wherein the tears were attributed to the arrival of “them”-- Shu and Tefnut rather than man. The distinction is moot if one agrees with Anthes that Tefnut and Shu “apparently refer to human society and not to a myth.” /1 Listmembers are undoubtably aware that the topic of textual claims of a post “Deluge” settlement of Egypt by the ancestors Shu and Tefnut or by a woman and her son has been discussed in the literature. Since this is not the place for a Bibliographical essay on 450+ sources, I will only offer a few short quotes from sources and commentaries in support of my conjecture that the Ancient Egyptians were well acquainted with clouds, storms, (and by implication rainbows). These sources also support the claim that Egyptian ancestors probably came from a far away land where these weather phenomena were common. Starting with Faulkner’s translation of Pyramid texts utterance 311: ....this name of yours of, ‘Great Flood which came from the Great One.” ....take me with you (even I) who drive away storms for you, who dispel clouds for you, and who break up the hail for you....set me over the Vulture G-ddess. /2 I see affinity between the vulture G-dess Muth and Hathor the Cow in the “Book of the Cow.” The Cow is sent by the g-ds to destroy man and to reestablish man anew on the primeval mound. /3 The cow arrives in Egypt finding the land still under water, the destruction of mankind well underway. She engages in a victory toast. She orders her minions to mix red oche with beer as a “victory-drink of beer and blood”--”It was the blood of mankind..” /4 “Down went Hathor and smote the human race upon the desert places...” /5 Shu and Tefnut are the parents of Atum their union is the start of a new world. /6 The lady who founded Egypt “came out of Bwgm while Shu went ahead as the image of Re, to overcome the waters by means of the wedjet Eye.” /7 References 1./ R. Anthes, “The Egyptian Theology in the Third Millenium B. C.” JNES 18, July 1959, p. 198f. (article pp. 169-212.). 2/ R.O. Faulkner, Pyramid Texts, (Warminster, 1969), p. 97 3/ Book of the Cow. Text C. Maystre, “Le Libre de la Vache du Ciel, “ Bulleltin de l’Instintut Francais d’ Archaeologie Orientale 58-115; A. De Buck Egyptian Reading Book, Leidan: Nederlands Inst. voor het Nabije Oosten, 123ff.; E. Naville, Trans. Soc. Biblical Archaeology 4 (1875):1-19, 8 (1885) 412-420. 4/ Maystre, Col 15:-1. Shott, S. “Sieg uber Seth,” in Kurt Sethe and H. Schaefer, Urkunden des agyptischen Altertums VI. Abt., Heft 1. p. 49. 5 / Maystre, Col 12-14. 6/ Maystre, Col 37f., 42f.. 7/ W. Erichsen ed., Papyrus Harris, Brussels: Foundation Reine Elisabeth, 1933) I, Col vii. Thanks to H. Nibley for pointing out the above references. I note that as of this writing Banyai Michael has replied to Aayko but not as yet to David Lorton. I am anticipating Banyai's considered reply. Thanks to all who have or will respond to my hypothesis, Please feel free to respond off list if you wish. Randall ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:32:21 -0500 (EST) From: Gay Robins Subject: Re: Is: ane egyptian wigs My point was simply that if elite males had their hair cut short in life, then the elaborate shoulder-length hair styles that they are shown wearing in the art could only have been achieved through wigs. Gay Robins On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 nyokabi@kingcon.com wrote: > At 07:58 AM 1/8/98 Gay Robin wrote: > Most female mummies (royal and non-royal) appear > >to have fairly long hair whereas most male mummies have short hair. The > >latter must either have had their hair cut at death or have worn wigs in > >life. > > > Not too sure I follow the reasoning why the short haired males must have > worn wigs-- the female evidence is more convincing to me, not that all > females wore wigs, but that , like today, some did. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:38:10 -0600 (CST) From: Bonnie L Johnston Subject: ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa Does anyone know what the generally accepted ages of the Indus Valley cities of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa are? And the age of the oldest artifact(s) found in each of these cities? Thanks in advance? Bon |)(| ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:28:07 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon Subject: Re: ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa Bonnie L Johnston wrote: > Does anyone know what the generally accepted ages of the Indus Valley > cities of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa are? And the age of the oldest > artifact(s) found in each of these cities? Radiocarbon dates fall between 1950 and 1650 BCE and the corrected dates of the mature Harappan civilization there is placed c.2450 to 2000 BCE. The latest layer contains skeletons in houses and in the streets suggesting final abandonment after a massacre around 1950-2000 BCE. I haven't read anything recently on the progress of excavation at the site which I understand is hindered by the water table. Soundings, however, reveal other occupation layers much deeper and hence much earlier suggesting occupation layers rivalling even Jericho. Guess I'll have to bring myself up to date on the latest excavations. Jack - -- D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA Jack Kilmon (jpman@accesscomm.net) http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:00:24 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: Re: ane: Rainbow; Response to D. Lorton; Aayko Eyma; C. Blatchley et. al. David Lorton wrote: > > Did I understand correctly that someone wants to equate iwntyw with a > > name Irem? Do the two roots share a single consonant? I think D.Lorton allready took notice nobody spoke of such a name equation. However I use the occasion to underline, that I never spoke about the identification of the jwntjw with the Arabic Irem else as about a seductive possibility, one cannot (or is anybody on the ANE who could ?) demonstrate. I gave more place to this tentative identification at the request of A.Naccache once more underlining the weak points in this equation. If I countered to Prof. Graefe or Aayko, not because I am convinced about the valabillity of my idea, but because I thought the arguments under attack were valid to a point. By the way, the identification of the jwntw with the Irem (which I formulated rather as a question) is I think only marginal for the discussion. I would therefore leave it for the moment as I can contribute to it nothing more than that I allredy done. It was for me only a question mark and I leave it as such. Regards Michael Banyai Banyai@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:58:48 -0500 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane Re: Accepted age of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa Bonnie L Johnston wrote: > > Does anyone know what the generally accepted ages of the Indus Valley > cities of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa are? And the age of the oldest > artifact(s) found in each of these cities? > According to Gregory Possehl, *Indus Age: The Writing System* (Penn, 1996), table 1, Early Harappan is 3200-2600, Mature Harappan is 2500- 2000, and lots of phases of Post-Urban Harappan are 2000-1000. Those two cities count as Mature Harappan. The earliest date in the table, Kili Ghul Mohammad Phase, is 7000-5000. - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:15:28 EST From: BStetzer Subject: ane: Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) I am looking for information for a paper I am working on about the Jews of Ethiopia (the Beta Israel), also often referred to as the Falasha, specifically their origins and the origins of their unique practice of Judaism. If anyone has information on this, or potential sources of such information, please contact me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:46:11 -0800 From: "Jonathan D. Safren" Subject: ane Mehqere Hag - Holiday Studies In response to inquiries I have received about Mehqere Hag - Holiday Studies, I would like to supply the following information for potential contributors: Mehqere Hag is devoted to all aspects of study of the Jewish Holidays. Following are some, but not all of those fields in which articles have been published: 1. Holidays and Festivals in the Biblical Period 2. Holidays and Festivals During Second Temple Times 3. Holidays and Festivals During the Period of the Mishna and Talmud 4. Holidays and Festivals from the Middle Ages through the Renaissance 5. Holidays and Festivals in Modern Times 6. Holidays During the Holocaust 7. Holiday Folklore and Folk Customs 8. Holidays in Literature, Drama, and Art 9. Holiday and Festival Liturgy 10. Jewish Holidays and Festivals in the Church Articles are to be submitted to: Dr. Yosef Roth-Rotem, Chief Editor Mehqere Hag - holiday Studies Center for Jewish Holiday Research Beit Berl College 44905 Beit Berl Post Office Israel e-mail: intmoed@beitberl.ac.il or to: Dr. Shlomo Weissblueth, Editor at the above address or to me, at the address appearing below.. Articles may be submitted in either Hebrew or English, but those written in Hebrew should include an English-language summary of not more than 200 words. Articles should be typed in Word for Windows (PC) or other PC-Word-compatible word processor. In addition to two (2) copies of the typescript, please include a 144 MB (3.5”) diskette containing the text. Articles submitted for publication are given to at least two readers for evaluation, and authors receive written notification of acceptance or rejection. The editors reserve the right to make minor changes ( e. g., spelling, grammar). In the case of major changes (content, etc.), the article is returned to the author for corrections. Authors of articles accepted for publication receive 3 copies of the issue in which their article appears. Last date for submission of articles to Vol. 10 is 30 April 1998. Sincerely, Jonathan D. Safren, English Editor Mehqere Hag - Holiday Studies Center for Jewish Holiday Studies Beit Berl College 44905 Berl Post Office Israel e-mail: yonsaf@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:43:59 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Gross Subject: Re: ane: Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, BStetzer wrote: > I am looking for information for a paper I am working on about the Jews of > Ethiopia (the Beta Israel), also often referred to as the Falasha, > specifically their origins and the origins of their unique practice of > Judaism. If anyone has information on this, or potential sources of such > information, please contact me. These issues are dealt with in two books from 1992: _The Evolution of the Ethiopian Jews_ by James A. Quirin (U of Minnesota Press, I think) and _The Beta Israel (Falasha) in Ethiopia_ by Steven Kaplan (NYU Press). andrew gross ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #10 *************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html