From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #21 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Thursday, January 22 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 021 ane Ancient Egyptian Gods, Information request ane Concensus 2 ane Pharonic incest ane three-year colloquium on "Translation in Context." ane Edmond Jacob ane ARIT Mellon Fellowship - East Europe ane Significance of name "David" ane Minor zoo fact: curving hooves Re: ane Significance of name "David" ane concensus? [none] ane Re: Pharaonic incest ane Re: Pharaonic incest ane Re: Pharaonic incest ane brother/sister marriage in Kush Re: ane three-year colloquium on "Translation in Context." Re: ane concensus? ane Meroitic Studies Confernce? Re: ane concensus? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:16:38 +0100 (CET) From: wyrwoll@stud.uni-frankfurt.de Subject: ane Ancient Egyptian Gods, Information request Dear List-Members: I am working on a paper on Ancient Egyptian gods from predynastic times. Do you know about studies on this subject apart from those one can find in the usual handbooks ? Hathor, her geographic origin, and her relation with water are of specific interest. Bibliographic data, also off-list, are welcome. Thank you very much in advance ! Sincerely, Thomas W. Wyrwoll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:09:45 EST From: Esagil Subject: ane Concensus 2 My thanks to all the scholars who have assisted me in getting caught up with developments in the study of Israelite religion. The second and final query I will pose on this head regards the Canaanite influence. Again, for the sake of concision, I will present a precis of what I was able to determine in the hope of obtaining criticism and suggestions for further reading. The profound influence of Canaanite literature and religious culture on Israel is no longer seriously disputed from any quarter.How this material is to interpreted however is question highly vexed. The last attempt at a grand synthesis may have been that advanced by Gaster in Thespis, with its summation of the "Myth and Ritual" school's methodologies, points of view, and cross- cultural-documentary. But this epoch seems to have passed into oblivion and today pure Ugaritic studies show a tendency to concentrate on "large ideas", e.g., Kingship, Cosmogony, Life vs.Death; that is, themes that almost have more affinity to literary criticism. Biblical scholars have essentially treated the Canaanite input as another textual strand. None of the clear parallels have gone unnoticed, there has been a general lack of success in showing how the Canaanite material combined with and harmonized with other levels of text. Probably the most influential study of its time was F. Cross' Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic (1971), approaching the subject from the traditionsgeschichtliche approach, he makes (chs. 1-2) the Canaanite El a patriarchal lord who rules the squabbling gods of his household like a bedouin chieftain. This prestigious god-type, he asserts, is the model for all the gods of the patriarchs - even Yahweh (ch. 3) is only one of his epithets. Underlying Cross' work is the idea (adumbrated by the title, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic) that the Canaanite material provided at best literary color and resonance for the Hebrews' attempts at history. The latest directions in the field might be represented by Mark S. Smith's The Early History of God, Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (Harper & Row 1990). Smith is willing to accord Canaanite myth a great deal more influence in the formation of Hebrew religion (for example, developing Cross' work, he makes El its foundational component, but at the expense of the more prominent Baal, who Cross gave rather more weight to). Despite the more profound role Smith gives El, he views (as his book's subtitle declares) ancient Israel as essentially a polytheistic culture in which the other deities yeilded their rights to El. It would seem then that current scholarship on the Canaanite influence is still working in the framework established by Cross, would not be uncomfortable with the characterisation of early Israelite religion as "El Henotheism." Thanks in advance for any enlightenment or correction you can afford, Jacob Rabinowitz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:51:04 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Pharonic incest Dear Classics, Ancien-L and ANE members. With the explicit prior approval of the author, I am posting to the public fora the below message sent to me in private by her on the above subject of Pharaonic incest. The author reports that "the ptolemies (particularly Ptolemy Philadelphus and Arsinoe II) are (her) particular field of interest". I apologize for not having been fully able to keep each of these three lists fully cross-posted on all of the many valuable contributions which have been made on this subject in each list respectively. I have also received some superb scholarly input in private which I do not (yet) have permission to make public. I realize that cross posting of this nature is highly unususal and awkward, certainly for me. But I hope that those interested in this thread, especially if you are subscribed to more than one of the above three lists, have been generally able to follow its progress, and I thank all of you for your informed and thoughtful contributions to it. Christopher Robbins *************** Beginning of Forwarded Message *************** >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:25:55 -0800 >To: crisica@idt.net >From: Elizabeth Bourne >Subject: Pharonic incest > >(introductory paragraph snipped) (Christopher Robbins wrote:) > >>>In terms of the so called "ancient" Greeks, however, I think it was >>>rather a different matter, at least in terms of their self-perception. >>>It has always seemed to me that the Greeks were EXTREMELY conscious of >>>who they were in every sense - a fact which may help account for the >>>otherwise bizarre incest of the Ptolemies. > >In considering the practice of incest among the Ptolemies, I think you need >to regard the background of the period. Ptolemy I, as was common among >ruling Macedonians, had a number of wives. As did the rest of Alexander's >surviving generals. They intermarried each others sisters and daughters as >a way of creating and cementing alliances during the lengthy period after >Alexander's death when they were all trying to control, take over, or >maintain power in Alexander's empire. > >The downside of this was that the next generation was all closely related, >and each throne had many claimants to it. The resulting bloodbath as heirs >murdered each other off was quite impressive. > >Consider the history of Arsinoe II. Married at 16 to Lysimachus, Arsinoe >had three sons. Either she caused the murder of Lysimachus' chief heir, >Agothocles, to ensure the inheritance of her sons, or her half brother (by >an earlier wife of Ptolemy I's) Ptolemy Keraunos arranged it when he saw >Lysimachus was going to support Ptolemy II's reign instead of supporting >Ptolemy Keraunos' claim to Egypt. Soon after Lysimachus was killed in >battle. Arsinoe escaped to Macedon, where she was beseiged by her half >brother. Ptolemy Keraunos publicly swore to uphold the claims of her sons, >and that she would be his only legal wife. An important consideration in a >time of accepted multiple marriages. Her oldest son, not trusting his >uncle, escaped. Arsinoe married her half brother, who then slaughtered her >two remaining children. She escaped and eventually made her way back to >Egypt. > >Her brother, Ptolemy II had his own problems. There was a faction that >believed that the Egyptian throne should have gone to Ptolemy Keraunos as >the oldest son. Possibly his wife, another Arsinoe, agreed. When Arsinoe >returned to Egypt, Ptolemy II put his first wife aside (she soon died, most >likely poisoned) and married his full sister. Arsinoe II adopted the >children Ptolemy and his first wife had. The couple had no children of >their own. > >I don't believe for a second that the pressures of living in Egypt caused >this sibling marriage. If that were necessary, Ptolemy I would have had to >create the impression of a sibling marriage, and Ptolemy II would have >married one of his sisters first. Although the Ptolemies participated in >Egyptian ceremonies in Memphis, their power base was Greek, not Egyptian. >An example of this is the belief that no Ptolemy before Cleopatra VII ever >bothered to learn Egyptian. > >I believe it was convenient for the Ptolemies to draw upon Egyptian history >to validate their marriages. But the cause lay in participating in the >vicious wars and infighting that were part of the collapse of Alexander's >empire. Clearly, you couldn't trust in the support of outsiders. Any >alliance with another country through marriage meant you were giving them a >potential reason to invade, and Egypt was a rich enough plum without the >added incentive. They were an aberration among their peers, but one that >makes sense in the context of their experience and the country they ruled. >It could not have been carried off in Macedon, but could in Egypt. Even >there it was not at first accepted among the Greek population. > >Unfortunately, sibling marriage didn't give future Ptolemies the peace I >believe Ptolemy II and Arsinoe II were hoping for. But they were >successful in that Egypt remained under Ptolemaic rule (regardless of >familial infighting) until Cleopatra VII. And she certainly gave it her >best shot. > >I would like to mention that the history above is severely abbreviated, and >doesn't begin to consider all the political infighting that was going on. > >Elizabeth Bourne > *************** End of Forwarded Message *************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:42:55 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane three-year colloquium on "Translation in Context." Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. {not that participants in the colloquiummust be (or become) members of the APA] xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx **NOTE EXTENSION OF DEADLINE** This is a final call for papers for the three-year colloquium on "Translation in Context." Due to the delay in the publication of the original Call for Papers in the October APA Newsletter, abstracts will be accepted until February 10, 1998, not February 1, as originally stated. (Apologies and thanks to those who have already sent in abstracts!) TRANSLATION IN CONTEXT Organizers: Elizabeth Vandiver, Northwestern University Richard Armstrong, University of Houston This colloquium was suggested by the interest shown in last year's panel "Choosing a Translation: What Is At Stake?" The three-year format will allow continued discussion in greater depth than was possible in the 1996 panel. Although as a profession we deal with translation on a daily basis in publications and in the classroom, we rarely have the opportunity to discuss the topic formally. We hope to change that with this extended exploration of literary translation. The colloquium will focus on literary translation in its historical and cultural specificity. Although classicists are the most qualified to judge the accuracy of translations from classical texts, we rarely address the other side of the question: how does a translation occur as an event in literary history in its own right? This basic question can be approached through a number of subsidiary questions. How is a new translation affected by its audience’s horizon of expectation, and how does it change or challenge that horizon? What kind of self-justifying moves and assumptions about the nature of language are evident in the translator’s introductory remarks, footnotes, and final translations? What cultural, sociologicalor political conditions make a translation possible or necessary? As these sample questions demonstrate, the study of translation is necessarily interdisciplinary, and tests our cultural competence in the languages of translation, not just our ability to evaluate a translation vis-à-vis an original classical text. Last year's panel suggested that discussions centered on some overarching "theory of translation" are often too vague to be useful. The colloquium's "local study" approach provides a useful alternative by attempting to evaluate translations as artifacts of their own cultural context. Each year will concentrate on a specific poetic genre, and papers should focus on translations into any language of either Greek or Roman source texts from that genre. In 1998, the genre under consideration will be epic, in 1999, lyric and elegy, in 2000, drama. Preference will be given to papers that highlight the translational practices of a given time and place. For 1998, we are soliciting papers on translations of epic into any language from any epoch. Our conception of epic is broad enough to include poets such as Lucretius, Apollonius and Aratus, as well as Homer and Vergil. Where possible, papers should discuss the claims and motivations of the translator, as these often expose certain telling presuppositions about language or literary tradition. Submit abstracts to Elizabeth Vandiver, Department of Classics, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208-2200. Abstracts will be judged anonymously by three referees. For additional information, contact either Elizabeth Vandiver at e-vandiver@nwu.edu, or Richard Armstrong at richarda@bayou.uh.edu. The colloquium has its own website, at http://www.hfac.uh.edu/transcontext, to help maintain continuity over its three years of development. ************************************************************************* * * * Elizabeth Vandiver e-vandiver@nwu.edu * * Visiting Assistant Professor * * Department of Classics phone: (847) 491-7104 * * Northwestern University fax: (847) 491-7598 * * 1859 Sheridan Road * * Evanston, IL 60208-2200 * * * * http://www2.mmlc.nwu.edu/classics/faculty/vandiver/vandiver.html * * * ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:45:13 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Edmond Jacob Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, via Jim Lindenberger [and with the permission of both]. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "Papa" Edmond Jacob died Saturday, peacefully in his sleep, in his 89th year. He remained lucid and a fine figure to the last; apparently having had an attack of some sort Easter weekend, he told a friend of mine, his pastor, "l'ange de la mort m'a touche aujourd'hui, mais ce weekend de Paques, la vie etait trop forte". We'll be having the funeral on Thursday. Almost the last of my professors here, the last from my doctoral studies, and almost the last of that great collection that was here in the '60's (Mehl, Wendel, Jacob, Benoit, Peter, Trocme) Strangely - though by then his status here was purely honorary, as he held the chair in Basel - Oscar Cullmann is still living, a friend visited with him a few weeks ago. [He is] ...a bit forgetful at moments, but on the whole quite remarkable still. Papa Jacob kept writing until the end; he completed and sent off a 70 p manuscript ten days ago, an overview of HT Theology. His funeral arrangements are those he made for himself. In the old manner, he will first be buried, in St.Gall cemetery here, at 14h30 Thursday, then we shall return to the Chapel of the Diaconat (the Protestant deaconess order, where he lived these past few years, and to which he gave support and care all the years of his ministry and teaching, where we will have a service of commemoration; simple, at his request, avoiding lengthy eulogies. Gerald Hobbs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: leinwand@sas.upenn.edu (Nancy Leinwand) Subject: ane ARIT Mellon Fellowship - East Europe MELLON RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS FOR CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPEAN SCHOLARS IN TURKEY 1998-1999 Fellowship Program: The American Research Institute in Turkey (ARIT) is pleased to invite applications for Mellon Research Fellowships in Turkey for 1998-1999. ARIT is offering three fellowships to Czech, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak scholars holding the PhD or its equivalent, who are engaged in advanced research in any field of the social sciences or the humanities involving Turkey. Fellowship competition is now open to scholars from Bulgaria and Rumania. The fellowships are for two to three months for research to be carried out in Turkey. Institutes: ARIT maintains two research institutes in Turkey. ARIT-Istanbul has a library focused on Byzantine, Ottoman, and modern studies of Turkey. ARIT- Ankara concentrates on art, archaeology, and ancient history in its library. Both institutes offer residential facilities (with advance reservation) and provide general assistance and introduction to colleagues, institutions, and authorities in Turkey. Purpose and Eligibility: Funds for the fellowships have been provided by The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation to the Council of American Overseas Research Centers to administer for the purpose of bringing East-Central European scholars of the humanities into a broader research community. Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Slovak, Bulgarian, and Rumanian scholars who are permanent residents of one of the countries included are eligible to apply. Applicants may not have held a prior fellowship under this program. Preference will be given to scholars in the early stages of their careers. Fellows are expected to devote full time to their projects and to participate in the activities of the Institute. Research Permission: Turkish law requires all foreign scholars, prior to entering the country, to obtain formal permission for any research to be carried out. ARIT Mellon fellows are personally responsible for obtaining their own research permission. Forms and procedures may be obtained through the Turkish diplomatic office within each country included in the competition. Since replies for permission may take six months or more, applicants are urged learn the procedures involved in gaining permission as early as possible. Applicants may contact the ARIT office for advice about research permission. Stipend: The program offers a stipend up to $10,500 to cover the costs of conducting the scholar's research project for two to three months, including travel, living expenses, work-related costs. Application: Applications should consist of 1) a brief project statement (3-5 pages) outlining the project and its significance; 2) a current curriculum vitae; and 3) two letters of reference from scholars in the relevant field including comment on the value and feasibility of the project (may be sent separately). Applications and supporting letters must be submitted to ARIT by March 5th, 1998, to the American Research Institute in Turkey, c/o University of Pennsylvania Museum, 33rd and Spruce Streets, Philadelphia PA 19104-6324, telephone (215) 898-3474, fax (215) 898-0657, email: leinwand@sas.upenn.edu Please contact the ARIT office in Philadephia for further information concerning application procedures. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:21:21 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: ane Significance of name "David" Here's another one I tried to send on unsuccessfully. I hope it gets through. >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:40:08 -0700 >To: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >From: John Tvedtnes >Subject: ane Significance of name "David" > >>Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:51:17 -0500 >>From: morsil@webtv.net >>Subject: ane Significance of name "David" >>Sender: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >>To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu >>Reply-to: morsil@webtv.net >> >>Dear Listmembers: >> >>In an article written in 1968 Held pointed out that the consonants of >>David (dwd) have the meaning "basket." He also noted that the "basket" >>was the symbol par excellence of public works/forced labor in Near >>Eastern antiquity. Is this mere coincidence or does it tell us something >>significant about David? >>Best wishes, Morris >> >>Morris Silver >>Department of Economics >>City College of New York >>http://members.tripod.com/~sondmor/index.html >> > >Coincidence. The word for jar or pot is a borrowing from Egyptian dd. I believe it is attested only in Hebrew and Aramaic (including Syriac). The name David has long been considered to be from the root DWD, "love," which is attested in Ugaritic as dd (paralleling ahbt), as also in Assyrian and Syriac, suggesting that it is of Semitic origin. John A. Tvedtnes Sr. Project Manager Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:23:01 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: ane Minor zoo fact: curving hooves Another try at getting this message through. >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:44:08 -0700 >To: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >From: John Tvedtnes >Subject: ane Minor zoo fact: curving hooves > >>Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:14 -0600 (CST) >>From: CFRBWIL@uchimvs1-3172.uchicago.edu >>Subject: ane Minor zoo fact: curving hooves >>Sender: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >>To: ANE >>Reply-to: CFRBWIL@uchimvs1-3172.uchicago.edu >> >>Dr. Simms noted curving hooves as a sign of coddling. >>It may only be a symptom of confinement with no trimming. >>In the early 1970's, many of the larged hoofed animals in >>the Cairo zoo had extremely long upturned hooves that looked >>like some of them were wearing skis! They were hardly >>better "coddled" than the animals in other zoos, although, >>since they had not left their climate of origin by very far, >>their coats were often superb. >> >>I have heard it said, but have no ready source, that this can >>happen to hoofed animals that live in swampy areas where >>there is little natural wear. >> >> bruce williams >> bb-williams@uchicago.edu >> > >Correct. I remember from my teen years a neighbor in Salt Lake who was fined because his horses' hooves had curled up and the horses were in pain. They were in a relatively wet pasture adjacent to the river. Hoofed animals either need to have their hooves artificially trimmed by their owners or, as in the wild, have sufficient access to the hard ground or rocks that will naturally trim them. John A. Tvedtnes Sr. Project Manager Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:29:04 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: Re: ane Significance of name "David" The letter waw was originally a consonant (semivowel) and was only later employed as a vowel. In the name David it is a consonant, while in DUD, jar, it is a vowel. The Hebrew word was borrowed from Egyptian (as were several other words for pottery vessels), where it is written dd. At 10:00 PM 1/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Is there a basis for the differing transliterations of these two words? In my >concordance (which I'm afraid is the limit of my Hebrew) it appears that the >only difference is the vowel points; however, I understand vowel points to be >a late addition to Hebrew script, so I'm curious if anything else indicates >that these words would have been pronounced differently from one another in >Iron II Judah. Is the later addition of vowel points sufficient for this >conclusion? > >Jim Thorn >Chicago, IL > John A. Tvedtnes Sr. Project Manager Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:20:24 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: ane concensus? I tried sending this on two days ago, but I seem to not have learned the ropes yet. I hope this forwarded message gets through. >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:20:43 -0700 >To: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >From: John Tvedtnes >Subject: ane concensus? > >Jacob Rabinowitz, > >Let me address just one of your comments and leave the rest to others. You wrote: > >>Israel's archaeology is, in comparison to that of Greece or Egypt, very poor. Adequate corroborating evidence for the textual accounts is simply not there. Nor did Israel's neighbors take much note of her in their historical record. > >I suppose that depends on what you mean by "archaeology." Israel has just a few monumental structures comparable to the Parthenon and because of the mosaic prohibition against statuary, you won't find the same volume as in the classical world. But archaeology is more than just museum pieces. Archaeology is about people and how they lived. So potsherds and houses and garbage dumps are the mainstay of archaeologists who don't have museum commitments. Actually, there is a fair amount of archaeological evidence for some Bible stories, though it is lacking for others. Thus, for example, the story of the Assyrian invasion of 701 B.C. is well-attested, being mentioned not only in the Bible, but also in several records of the Assyrian king Sennacherib, as well as in various classical sources (including Herodotus). Archaeologically, it is supported by such things as the actual tunnel constructed by order of king Hezekiah. Hezekiah himself is named in the Assyrian documents. > >Several other Israelite and Judaean kings are also named in Assyrian, Babylonian, and Moabite documents. These include Omri, Ahab, Jehoiachin, and Zedekiah. In some cases, these documents provide information not known from the Bible, in addition to confirming Bible stories. John A. Tvedtnes Sr. Project Manager Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:42:13 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: [none] To Andrew Gross's comments about the Falasha, let me add that a perusal of Falasha texts (e.g., Wolf Leslau's Falasha Texts) shows borrowing from Ethiopic Christian sources and, in some cases, the two groups share texts. John A. Tvedtnes Sr. Project Manager Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:10:17 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Re: Pharaonic incest Below msg posted to Classics, forwarded to Ancien-L & ANE. CRR ______________________________________________________________________ >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:27:40 -0600 >From: Peter Green >To: classics@u.washington.edu >Subject: Re: Pharaonic incest >> >>>Macedonians frequently married nieces, nephews, cousins, uncles, etc.... >>>They defined "incest" much more narrowly than we do. >>> >>>jan gabbert >>>wright state univ >>>jgabbert@desire.wright.edu > >Could we have some evidence for this please? And *outside* the Argead >royal house? Thanks. > >PMG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:09:58 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Re: Pharaonic incest Below msg posted to Ancien-L, forwarded to Classics & ANE. CRR __________________________________________________________________ >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:29:55 -0800 >From: Brigette Russell >Subject: Re: Pharaonic incest (Ancien-L) >To: ANCIEN-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU > >At 11:15 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >>In my view, an aberration, brought about by political need (in this >>case, securing the alliance of Epiros on Macedonia's western frontier). >>I can't think of a single instance of brother-sister marriage in the >>Argead dynasty, or indeed of ANY instance of Macedonian incest outside >>it. Philip II seems to have been almost the sole instigator of both > >In that case, would you attribute the marriage policy of the Ptolemies to >Egyptian rather than Macedonian tradition, as the person who started this >thread (I think) supposed? > >Brigette Russell >Department of History >University of Southern California > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:10:40 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Re: Pharaonic incest Below msg posted to Ancien-L, forwarded to Classics & ANE. CRR __________________________________________________________________ >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:19:55 -0600 >From: Peter Green >Subject: Re: Pharaonic incest (Ancien-L) >To: ANCIEN-L@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU > >>At 11:15 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>In my view, an aberration, brought about by political need (in this >>>case, securing the alliance of Epiros on Macedonia's western frontier). >>>I can't think of a single instance of brother-sister marriage in the >>>Argead dynasty, or indeed of ANY instance of Macedonian incest outside >>>it. Philip II seems to have been almost the sole instigator of both >> >>In that case, would you attribute the marriage policy of the Ptolemies to >>Egyptian rather than Macedonian tradition, as the person who started this >>thread (I think) supposed? >> >>Brigette Russell >>Department of History >>University of Southern California > >In part; it was handy, royally acceptable, and useful. But the early >Ptolemies were conniving characters, whose prime aim was to >establish themselves firmly as royalty. To this end Ptol. I hijacked >the body of Alex. III and kept it on public display, like Lenin in Red Square; >and Ptol. II (after a more legit. liaison with Lysimachus' daughter Arsinoe) >married his sister. He had the example of Alex. III's sister to go by as well. >Probably both influenced him. I don't think it was an either/or case. > >PMG > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 19:45 CST From: CFRBWIL@uchimvs1-3172.uchicago.edu Subject: ane brother/sister marriage in Kush For comments on the role of brother/sister marriage in the Kushite succession in the Napatan Period see: Laszlo Torok, The Kingdom of Kush. handbook of the Napatan- Meroitic Civilization HdO Leiden: Brill 1997, pp. 255-62. One of the most vivid documents is the election stela of Aspelta (late 7th cent), JdE 48866. See Eide, Hagg, Pierce, and Torok, Fontes Historiae Nubiorum, vol. I Bergen: Univ. of Bergen, 1994, pp. 232-52, esp. 240-41. The Kushite succession, and probable precedents from the early New Kingdom have occasioned a lively discussion. Enjoy. by the way, Torok has 2 umlauts, Hagg one. bruce williams bb-williams@uchicago.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:23:16 EST From: FucciXXV Subject: Re: ane three-year colloquium on "Translation in Context." I can never hear the topic of translation broached without remembering the old saw that "translations are like mistresses: if they're faithful they're not beautiful, and if they're beautiful they're not faithful." The simile has of course become politically incorrect, but the point about translations will always remain valid. Jim Thorn Chicago, IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:36:15 EST From: BStetzer Subject: Re: ane concensus? while it is true that this area is extremely speculative, there are contemporary accounts dating back to the 10th century AD of the Beta Israel, allied with the Agau tribes, and under the leadership of Queen Yehudit, overthrowing the ruling dynasty and installing the Zagwe Dynasty. i believe that the 13th century references mentioned were from the latter half of the 13th century, when the descendants of the dethroned emperor Menelik resumed the throne and began a war of extermination against the Beta Israel, which drove the Jews back into the Semyen Mountains. Bryan A. Stetzer Department of Anthropology University of Memphis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:20:40 -0600 (CST) From: Earl J Heinrich Subject: ane Meroitic Studies Confernce? Does anyone know if there has been a recent Meroitic Studies Conference? The most recent published proceedings (Meroitica) I can find listed are from the late 80's. Thanks Earl J. Heinrich hein0015@gold.tc.umn.edu University of Minnesota Libraries ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Gross Subject: Re: ane concensus? On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, BStetzer wrote: > while it is true that this area is extremely speculative, there are > contemporary accounts dating back to the 10th century AD of the Beta > Israel, allied with the Agau tribes, and under the leadership of Queen > Yehudit, overthrowing the ruling dynasty and installing the Zagwe > Dynasty. i believe that the 13th century references mentioned were from > the latter half of the 13th century, when the descendants of the > dethroned emperor Menelik resumed the throne and began a war of > extermination against the Beta Israel, which drove the Jews back into > the Semyen Mountains. 1) The details regarding the 'ayhud (and what connection they may have had to the Beta Israel) and Queen Yehudit are sketchy, but let's just for argument's sake stipulate that the historical record is as you portray it. Even if Jews were present in Ethiopia in the 10th century CE, we can hardly assume -- as you had in your previous message -- that this group had split off from mainstream Judaism before the rise of Rabbinic Judaism several centuries earlier. 2) However, let's assume that they ultimately do have their origins in a group that splintered off from mainstream Judaism some thousand year or so previously -- and I certainly would not deny that there is evidence of some archaic elements of Judaism in Ethiopian religion. It still would be more than a little misleading to say that the Beta Israel religion represented a "pure", pre-Rabbinic style "Biblical Judaism" as you maintained, because Beta Israel shared many important elements with Ethiopian Christianity and was heavily influenced by it. 3) Finally, you had claimed that Beta Israel religion had maintained this purity up until the moment when they were loaded onto the planes that took them to Israel. However, the Beta Israel had actually began to acculturate themselves towards mainstream Judaism already at the beginning of this century through the efforts of Jacques Faitlovitch. cheers, andrew gross ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #21 *************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html