From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #259 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 259 Re: ane Carian? Re: ane Carian? ane AW: Red Heifer/Yom Kippur Re: ane auffeles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:21:05 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane Carian? Allen Adler wrote: > > In book VIII, 134-137 of Herodotus (I got this from Robert Graves, > The Greek Myths and then checked it), he mentions that a certain > oracle spoke not in Greek but in Carian. On the map provided in > my copy of Herodotus, Caria is shown just south of Lydia. > > What I would like to know is, what do we know about Carian as a language? > What corpus might have tablets or inscriptions in Carian? Most volumes of the journal *Kadmos* have an article or two on Carian. The leading researcher is John Ray. The inscriptions are in a Greek-related alphabet and are found both in the Carian home territory and in lots of places in Egypt; Carian mercenaries got around pretty well. Some say the language is pretty well understood, and some say it's Indo-European. Those two sets of "sayers" are not necessarily the same people. - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:27:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: Re: ane Carian? At 07.21 19/09/98 -0400, you wrote: >Some say the language is pretty well understood, and some say it's >Indo-European. Those two sets of "sayers" are not necessarily the same >people. >-- >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > Admittedly Carian is a largely undeciphered script and an even more incomprehensible language (I don't know of any researcher who regards Carian as "pretty well understood"), but the recently found Greek-Carian bilinguis from Caunos (P. Frei, Ch. Marek, Die karisch-griechische Bilingue von Kaunos. Eine zweisprachige Staatsurkunde des 4. Jh.s v. Chr.: Kadmos 36, 1997, pp. 1-89) bear enough evidence that it is a Luwian language. A pair of isoglosses suggest in my opinion a close relationship to Milyan (= Lycian B). Best regards, Giuseppe Del Monte - -------------- Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:38:51 +-200 From: Aayko Eyma Subject: ane AW: Red Heifer/Yom Kippur - ---------- Van: FucciXXV@aol.com[SMTP:FucciXXV@aol.com] Apparently, the Catch-22 isn't even that indirect. According to the website of the illustrious Vendyl Jones: "In that same tractate, Mishnah 5, we discover a vital condition of any purification preparations in the future. The ashes of any subsequent Red Heifer must be mingled with those of the previous nine." ***I'm no exactly an expert, but AFAIK, Mishna (division VI) Parah is the one dealing with the Red Heifer, and it says: "(3:5) If they did not find [the residue of the ash] from seven [former cows of purification], they did it from six, from five, from four, from three, from two, from one" So this seems to indicate that the more previous ashes the better, but of one heifer only will do fine??! (3:5) continues with listing the past heifers: by Moses, by Ezra and 7 heifers by sages after them. Which makes for the 9 heifers Jones mentions. Jonathan Safren wrote: >Don't you think it odd that Yom Kippur should be singled out as a joyous day on which all the young maidens had nothing better to do than to attract the young men? And that the Mishnah regards this custom very benevolently? **"Remarkable", yes, "odd"...no, not per se. What more joyess time than a new beginning, immediately after a period of remorse and utter solemness - the anxious waiting of the crowd, the relief when the High Priest reappears from the Holy of Holiness, the atonement accepted, the sins taken away, the horn sounds, the Year of Freedom is announced (every 50th year that is). Sounds like an excellent time to go out in good spirits to the vineyards, minds turning to the harvest and joyess Tabernacles ahead. Perhaps something of the marriage/(renewed) covenant symbolism is there too? (cf Misnah explanation of the song of the girls) The explicit white clothes of the virgins fits Attonement Day nicely too (but then we would have to presume Av 15 is secundary). But bottomline, I do not see why the day cannot have a dual character - an Old Year and New Year in one. First the contemplation and purifying, then the joy of a new beginning. The reapperance of the Highpriest being the switch in mood (cf Yoma 7:4i!, that feast likely after sunset though?; cf. Jesus Sirach about the impact of the reappereance of the HP), even though the fast itself continues till the end of the day. Just a thought. (It was not totally clear to me whether with "The Mishnah retains a tradition of an earlier and more festive Yom Kippur", you meant "earlier" as in "pre-rabinnic" or as in "pre-HB". Your answer to Liz suggested the first, and in that I could agree.) Alternatively: could the Misnah be misplacing the girl event, it in actuality belonging to Tabernacles, where it in nature fits so well? Then in two cases the event would be on the 15th, full moon. For the girls' custom, see Judges 21:19-23; at "a yearly feast", which could mean to indicate specifically a pilgrim feast (Tabernacles!, Pascha, Shavuoth), but not necessarily so. Like Liz indicated, it remains risky to base too much on one 3th c. text, I suppose. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:03:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Leslie Train Subject: Re: ane auffeles Not having any idea of the context, I can only guess that if 'auffeles' is indeed Yiddish, it may be the possesive form of the second-degree diminutive (auf, aufel, aufele) - meaning: "little baby's" Les Train On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Alessandro Catastini wrote: > Dear ANEers, does anyone tell me if "auffeles" is a yiddish term? Thanks, > Alessandro > > > > Alessandro Catastini > > Universita' di Pisa > Dpt. Scienze Storiche del Mondo Antico > via Galvani 1, 56126 Pisa - I > Tel. 050-911560 - FAX + 39 50 500668 > > ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #259 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html