From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #268 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Monday, September 28 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 268 ane Enki/Thoth/Hermes. Re: ane Islamic holiness of Jerusalem: an am Re: ane Re: Digamma ane in search of photos ane Svi Rin Re: ane Re: Digamma ane NOT re "Digamma" ane Recent Augusta McMahon Article Re: ane Re: Digamma ane AWOTV delay ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:13:22 +0200 From: "Rasmus" Subject: ane Enki/Thoth/Hermes. I enjoyed the communication regarding the Egyptian origin of Hermes. I would like to ask if any comparisons have been made regarding the similarities of the way Enki related knowledge to his son Asarluhi and Hermes? I would also like to know if there are any similarities in Egyptian legends to the Enki/Asarluhi tales. Sincerely Rasmus http://home.sol.no/~rgjesdal/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:53:19 AST From: Tom Simms Subject: Re: ane Islamic holiness of Jerusalem: an am On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:42:55 -0400, LBR@sprynet.com writes: > >On 24 Sep 98, at 15:34, Richard Stern wrote: > >> 1. Is it correct to say the water was used for ritual purposes? This >> implies that the Temple Mount included a mikvah. Is there any support for >> this proposition? > >It may not be accurate to say that the water was used >"only" or "primarily" for ritual purposes, but at least >some of it must have been put to ritual use. Among the >vessels of the Temple described in 1 Kings 7:23. In >addition, of course, the use of water is prescribed for a >number of priestly rituals in Leviticus. (Even if the date >of Leviticus is later than the First Temple, it is not, I >think, unrealistic to surmise that the use of water in >cleansing rituals was common earlier.) The earliest Hebrew texts of these accounts are from the First C. BCE, the earliest Greek versions are from the Second C. BCE with small fragments from c. 300 BCE. The priestly rituals sources are plentifully supplied from the inner courts and chambers of Ptolemaic era Temples following a major thrust to recording antiquarian literature in the Persian and Ptolemaic eras of Late Kingdom Egypt. >> How about that it was just a historical accident? Unlike Hebron and >> Lachish, it was on the border between Judah and the Ephraimites. >> Unlike Hebron and Shechem it did not belong to anyone but the >> Jebusites, and they weren't protesting any more. (Forget about >> that pre conquest episode that looked like it was plagiarized from >> Monty Python's Holy Grail.) >> It's not clear why Judah did not revert to using Hebron >> after Rheoboam. > >Probably because Solomon had built the Temple there? This is ANE not a fiction club - where's your evidence? >> Ezra had a problem with maintaining the position of >> Jerusalem, and it was necessary to require people to move >> there. So it might have turned out that the preeminence of >> Jerusalem faded away by 500. By accident it didn't. > >Given the importance attached at the time to the rebuilding >of the Temple, and the notion that had taken hold that >Jerusalem was the place that God had chosen, it strikes me >likely that it was more than an accident - it was rooted >in belief. Well, that's quite a short to-the-point sermon. Again, where's the evidence? >Lewis Reich >LBR@sprynet.com > CUL8R Tom Simms ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:22:06 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane Re: Digamma Dear Bob, Peter and Other List Memebers, I certainly agree with everything that Bob has indicated regarding the term inu C (according to CAD,I/J,152b). I would like to add two points, however, which I believe are relevant to the issue at hand: 1) W. von Soden was apparently not at all convinced by the disclaimor in CAD,I/J,152b since in his 1981 "Berichtingungen und Nachtra:ge" (AHw, p. 1563b) he merely adds additional Hittite etymological evidence, stating "i:nu II (heth. wijana-)." 2) If mu-tin(-na) is indeed "presumably eme-sal for ge$tin" (not being a Sumerologist, I am here relying on Bob's knowledge), then the equation mu-tin = i-nu in Izi G:line 92 (=MSL XIII, p. 202) looks very much like other equations where West Semitic foreign words (not by any means loanwords, but rather "Fremdwo:rte" in Akkadian) appear as Hapax Legomena in the Akkadian language (artificially increasing the number of Hapax Legomena to much higher percentages than would be expected of such a well-documented vocabulary as is the case for extant Akkadian) only in a single lexicographical equation where the scribe either could not think of a native Akkadian term or was attempting to increase the number of equivalents by citing a foreign equivalent term in addition to the Akkadian equivalents. A few of the many examples of this phenomenon include eru^ = na$ru "eagle" (notwithstanding Landsberger's translation here of "vulture" in MSL VIII/2, pp. 129-130 which was rightly rejected in CAD,N/2,79a); aqrabu = zuqaqi:pu "scorpion"; barbaru = zi:bu II "wolf, jackal" (the only case where zi:bu means "wolf, jackal" rather than "vulture" - CAD and AHw must both be corrected on this point - I am currently writing this up). It is absolutely wrong to look upon such terms as Akk. loanwords as is commonly done. Yisraela Nili, my doctoral student at Bar-Ilan University (together with Prof. Jacob Klein) is working on all the Akkadian Hapax Legomena as the subject of her Doctorate and will be providing all the relevant evidence for the above thesis. All the best, Chaim Cohen On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Robert Whiting wrote: > On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Donald R. Vance wrote: > > > The difference between "akin to" and "derived from" is well taken. > > An English word can only be "derived from" Greek if the word is a loan > or a neologism (a special case of a loan, of which there are many from > both Greek and Latin [occasionally mixed!] in English). Greek and > Germanic are two different branches of Indo-European, and words in these > branches can share a descent from a common ancestor (= be "akin to"). > Now the word "wine" stands a chance of being "derived from" Greek if > the Latin word was borrowed from Greek, because it was the Romans who > spread the word for wine (along with the commodity) through the rest > of Europe. It is more likely, however, that the WINE word was borrowed > into both languages from the same source (although a case can be made > for the WINE word being PIE). > > > Interestingly, BDB lists de Lagarde and others who understood the root > > presumed to underlie Hebrew yayn as a possible loanword from IE! BDB > > lists Arabic wayn "(black) grapes" and Sabean wyn as parallels. It also > > lists Akk inu, which I could find in AHW (which von Soden indicates as > > coming from Canaanite yain) but I could not find in ÇAD. > > The reference cited by von Soden (which is a hapax legomenon from a > lexical list) is in CAD under inu C (I/J, p. 152b) with the comment "Not > to be connected with Heb. yayin "wine," etc." CAD also points out that > this identification goes back to Jensen in ZA 1 (1886), 187, but the > lexical list (izi = i$a:tu) has now been published in MSL 13, p. 202:92 > with little additional commentary except to note that collation of l. 97 > suggests that the restoration of mu-tin-na = k[a-ra-nu] there is unlikely, > thus destroying one of the main connections established by Jensen between > the mu-tin = i-nu of l. 92 with wine. CAD K, however, is of a different > opinion, restoring (boldly) ka-[ra-nu] in l. 97 of Izi G (p. 202b s.v. > kara:nu). The mu-tin(-na) is presumably eme-sal for ge$tin. Regardless > of whether i(:)nu here means "wine" or not, it is not the normal Akkadian > word for "wine," which is kara:nu, and i:nu must be treated as a > lexicalized West Semitism. > > > Segert in his Ugaritic Glossary also points out Arab. wayn and Greek > > (w)oinos. It would seem reasonable then, given these parallels that we > > are dealing with a word common to the Eastern Mediterranean > > There would seem to be little doubt about this. But the origin of the > word remains obscure. The fact that it occurs in many Semitic languages > does not necessarily mean that it was proto-Semitic any more than the > similarity of the PEPPER word in Indo-European means that this was a > PIE word. We are dealing with a wanderwort here, like chocolate, except, > unlike chocolate, we don't know the origin of the word. > > > This reminds me of the situation one has with the word Earth. Hebrew > > />ars./, Aramaic />ararq/, Ugaritic /ars./, and Arabic />ard./ all > > point to a PS />ard./. Merriam Websters 10 Collegiate show English earth > > as deriving from Old English eorthe, "akin to Old High German erde" and > > Greek era. Again, a wide spread Eastern Mediterranean word. > > Let's not forget Sumerian ura$, gen. urta(k), which can go into the pot > too. > > Bomhard and Kerns, _The Nostratic Macrofamily_, pp. 558-59 take it > back to Nostratic ?ar-/?@r-, citing examples from PIE (Greek, Germanic, > Celtic), PAA (mostly Semitic plus Jibba:li), and Dravidian. The Sumerian > is not included however. Here a really old root looks more likely than > an eastern Mediterranean wanderwort, even though the Nostratic evidence > is not all that convincing -- not nearly as solid as the Germanic-Semitic > connection (which is hard to explain on its own) anyway. > > > Bob Whiting > whiting@cc.helsinki.fi > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:43:09 -0400 From: David Lorton Subject: ane in search of photos I'm getting the illustrations together for a book on Ptolemaic Egypt. On my wish list are a few items so out-of-the-way that relatively few people are likely to have photos of them. So I reckoned I might has well put out a general call for assistance. The items are: the ruins at Tehne ruins of ancient Pathyris at modern Gebelein (I'd settle for a photo of the foundations of a single house) Roman soldiers' graffiti at one of the following places: Abydos, Thebes (royal tombs), temple of Isis at Philae If anyone has what you feel to be a photo of publishable quality of any of these items, could you please contact me privately? Thank you in advance for your help. David Lorton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:28:33 -0500 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Svi Rin Sad news forwarded on behalf of the undersigned xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: Jack Sasson Sad news from Anson Rainey that the Ugarit specialist Svi Rin died after a tough bout with cancer, apparently on Saturday September 26. I will forward any further detail that come to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:40:19 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane Re: Digamma Just a minor correction to my letter below: In paragraph 2, the text should have been as follows: It is absolutely wrong to look upon such terms as West Semitic loanwords in Akkadian as is commonly done. All the best, Chaim Cohen On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, chaim cohen wrote: > Dear Bob, Peter and Other List Memebers, > I certainly agree with everything that Bob has indicated regarding the > term inu C (according to CAD,I/J,152b). I would like to add two points, > however, which I believe are relevant to the issue at hand: > 1) W. von Soden was apparently not at all convinced by the disclaimor in > CAD,I/J,152b since in his 1981 "Berichtingungen und Nachtra:ge" (AHw, p. > 1563b) he merely adds additional Hittite etymological evidence, stating > "i:nu II (heth. wijana-)." > 2) If mu-tin(-na) is indeed "presumably eme-sal for ge$tin" (not being a > Sumerologist, I am here relying on Bob's knowledge), then the equation > mu-tin = i-nu in Izi G:line 92 (=MSL XIII, p. 202) looks very much like > other equations where West Semitic foreign words (not by any means > loanwords, but rather "Fremdwo:rte" in Akkadian) appear as Hapax Legomena > in the Akkadian language (artificially increasing the number of Hapax > Legomena to much higher percentages than would be expected of such a > well-documented vocabulary as is the case for extant Akkadian) only in a > single lexicographical equation where the scribe either could not think of > a native Akkadian term or was attempting to increase the number of > equivalents by citing a foreign equivalent term in addition to the > Akkadian equivalents. A few of the many examples of this phenomenon > include eru^ = na$ru "eagle" (notwithstanding Landsberger's translation > here of "vulture" in MSL VIII/2, pp. 129-130 which was rightly rejected > in CAD,N/2,79a); aqrabu = zuqaqi:pu "scorpion"; barbaru = zi:bu II "wolf, > jackal" (the only case where zi:bu means "wolf, jackal" rather than > "vulture" - CAD and AHw must both be corrected on this point - I am > currently writing this up). It is absolutely wrong to look upon such > terms as Akk. loanwords as is commonly done. Yisraela Nili, my doctoral > student at Bar-Ilan University (together with Prof. Jacob Klein) is > working on all the Akkadian Hapax Legomena as the subject of her Doctorate > and will be providing all the relevant evidence for the above thesis. > All the best, Chaim Cohen > > On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Robert Whiting wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Donald R. Vance wrote: > > > > > The difference between "akin to" and "derived from" is well taken. > > > > An English word can only be "derived from" Greek if the word is a loan > > or a neologism (a special case of a loan, of which there are many from > > both Greek and Latin [occasionally mixed!] in English). Greek and > > Germanic are two different branches of Indo-European, and words in these > > branches can share a descent from a common ancestor (= be "akin to"). > > Now the word "wine" stands a chance of being "derived from" Greek if > > the Latin word was borrowed from Greek, because it was the Romans who > > spread the word for wine (along with the commodity) through the rest > > of Europe. It is more likely, however, that the WINE word was borrowed > > into both languages from the same source (although a case can be made > > for the WINE word being PIE). > > > > > Interestingly, BDB lists de Lagarde and others who understood the root > > > presumed to underlie Hebrew yayn as a possible loanword from IE! BDB > > > lists Arabic wayn "(black) grapes" and Sabean wyn as parallels. It also > > > lists Akk inu, which I could find in AHW (which von Soden indicates as > > > coming from Canaanite yain) but I could not find in ÇAD. > > > > The reference cited by von Soden (which is a hapax legomenon from a > > lexical list) is in CAD under inu C (I/J, p. 152b) with the comment "Not > > to be connected with Heb. yayin "wine," etc." CAD also points out that > > this identification goes back to Jensen in ZA 1 (1886), 187, but the > > lexical list (izi = i$a:tu) has now been published in MSL 13, p. 202:92 > > with little additional commentary except to note that collation of l. 97 > > suggests that the restoration of mu-tin-na = k[a-ra-nu] there is unlikely, > > thus destroying one of the main connections established by Jensen between > > the mu-tin = i-nu of l. 92 with wine. CAD K, however, is of a different > > opinion, restoring (boldly) ka-[ra-nu] in l. 97 of Izi G (p. 202b s.v. > > kara:nu). The mu-tin(-na) is presumably eme-sal for ge$tin. Regardless > > of whether i(:)nu here means "wine" or not, it is not the normal Akkadian > > word for "wine," which is kara:nu, and i:nu must be treated as a > > lexicalized West Semitism. > > > > > Segert in his Ugaritic Glossary also points out Arab. wayn and Greek > > > (w)oinos. It would seem reasonable then, given these parallels that we > > > are dealing with a word common to the Eastern Mediterranean > > > > There would seem to be little doubt about this. But the origin of the > > word remains obscure. The fact that it occurs in many Semitic languages > > does not necessarily mean that it was proto-Semitic any more than the > > similarity of the PEPPER word in Indo-European means that this was a > > PIE word. We are dealing with a wanderwort here, like chocolate, except, > > unlike chocolate, we don't know the origin of the word. > > > > > This reminds me of the situation one has with the word Earth. Hebrew > > > />ars./, Aramaic />ararq/, Ugaritic /ars./, and Arabic />ard./ all > > > point to a PS />ard./. Merriam Websters 10 Collegiate show English earth > > > as deriving from Old English eorthe, "akin to Old High German erde" and > > > Greek era. Again, a wide spread Eastern Mediterranean word. > > > > Let's not forget Sumerian ura$, gen. urta(k), which can go into the pot > > too. > > > > Bomhard and Kerns, _The Nostratic Macrofamily_, pp. 558-59 take it > > back to Nostratic ?ar-/?@r-, citing examples from PIE (Greek, Germanic, > > Celtic), PAA (mostly Semitic plus Jibba:li), and Dravidian. The Sumerian > > is not included however. Here a really old root looks more likely than > > an eastern Mediterranean wanderwort, even though the Nostratic evidence > > is not all that convincing -- not nearly as solid as the Germanic-Semitic > > connection (which is hard to explain on its own) anyway. > > > > > > Bob Whiting > > whiting@cc.helsinki.fi > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:14:57 EDT From: ECOLING@aol.com Subject: ane NOT re "Digamma" Please, everyone, the messages on ane recently ARE NOT about "Digamma". Please title messages in a revealing way, it makes it much easier to sort and keep track of them, and find things again later when needed. Or even to disregard certain threads of discussion, when one does not have time. Sincerely yours, Lloyd Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:26:15 -0400 From: Lauren Ristvet Subject: ane Recent Augusta McMahon Article Someone recently told me that they had read an article by Augusta McMahon about the Akkadian occupation level at Nineveh. He said that the article had appeared within the last year. Since I didn't locate the article after a brief glance through the recent issues of the more common journals, I though I would ask if anyone happened to have this cite handy. Please respond to me directly. Thanks in advance. Lauren ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:27:42 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane Re: Digamma chaim cohen wrote: > 1) W. von Soden was apparently not at all convinced by the disclaimor in > CAD,I/J,152b since in his 1981 "Berichtingungen und Nachtra:ge" (AHw, p. > 1563b) he merely adds additional Hittite etymological evidence, stating > "i:nu II (heth. wijana-)." Old dogs, new tricks? > 2) If mu-tin(-na) is indeed "presumably eme-sal for ge$tin" (not being a > Sumerologist, I am here relying on Bob's knowledge), then the equation > mu-tin = i-nu in Izi G:line 92 (=MSL XIII, p. 202) looks very much like > other equations where West Semitic foreign words (not by any means > loanwords, but rather "Fremdwo:rte" in Akkadian) appear as Hapax Legomena > in the Akkadian language (artificially increasing the number of Hapax > Legomena to much higher percentages than would be expected of such a > well-documented vocabulary as is the case for extant Akkadian) Distinction between loanword and Fremdwort? You really can't be sure that some word didn't exist in the language because it never happens to get written down. (I think it was Erica Reiner herself who told me there was general rejoicing when "qata:lu" finally turned up in Akkadian -- Mari, isn't it -- which made it really "officially" a Semitic language. It might have been when I was wondering why we didn't systematically include cognate information like vS -- which, BTW, I got the impression doesn't supersede Brockelmann's Lex. Syr. for Sem. cognates.) Maybe there was highly WSem-influenced Akk. among them illiterate westerners, where all sorts of the kind of words you mention were part of the street vocabulary. - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:37:06 -0400 From: David Meadows Subject: ane AWOTV delay The TV listings will be delayed because a couple of stations have been derelict in their duty to keep me informed! (I could do it via clicktv I suppose, but that will take me the rest of the evening!! Look for the listings tomorrow evening. Sorry for the inconvenience! dm _________________________________________ ]|[ David Meadows ]|[ http://web.idirect.com/~atrium ]|[ ========================================= ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #268 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html