From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #282 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Monday, October 12 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 282 Re: ane two random details Re: ane two random details ane Khirbet Qazone cemetery, the Lisan, Jordan ane Ane: Poseidon ane Philistines not Phoenicians ane Ancient Board-Games ane Tut's Face Re: ane average lifespan ane To the attention of Maeir Aren Re: ane Tut's Face Re: ane Ane: Poseidon [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) ane The Ancient World on Television (North America) Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] ane Egyptian origin of Israelite cultic organization? Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Re: ane Egyptian origin of Israelite cultic organization? ane Acknowledgements ane The origin of the name of Demeter ane The burning of red-haired Egyptians ane Adonai, Poseidon and Seth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:28:53 GMT From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Subject: Re: ane two random details Allen Adler wrote: >(2) Second detail > >On April 6, 1962, Raphael Patai wrote to Robert Graves: >"Just a few days ago an item was published here [New York, I think] >in the papers about the decipherment by my friend Cyrus H Gordon of >Brandeis University, of the ancient Cretan script Linear B. Should be: Linear A. Linear A remains undeciphered. This is mainly due to the fact that there is much less material in Linear A than there is in Linear B. Most of the Linear A signs can be identified with Linear B signs of similar shape, and it's a safe assumption that the two scripts are related. So if we substitute the Linear B readings into the Linear A texts we can hope to get some words right (and others wrong: Latin and Cyrillic are related, more than half of the signs are similar, but only about half of those are correct if we naively substitute Latin letter readings for Cyrillic signs). The best argument for Gordon's theory is the "sum total" formula that reads "all" in Greek Linear B, but in Linear A, cf. Semitic . Unfortunately, despite a few other matches (sa-ya-ma-na "[of] silver"? and ki-de-ma-wi-na "golden"? on one tablet, the name(?) da-we-da on another), most Linear A texts apparently do not yield sensible Semitic when read in this fashion. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv@wxs.nl Amsterdam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 07:58:45 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane two random details Allen Adler wrote: > Question: Did they succeed? Graves & Patai certainly isn't as riogorously organized as Graves's *Greek Myths*, so doesn't serve the only purpose the latter is good for, namely, looking up references to themes and individuals; it doesn't get cited by folks who might deal with its themes. > (2) Second detail > Question: Did Cyrus Gordon challenge the work of Michael Ventris by > claiming an alternative decipherment of Linear B? No, Linear A. > Now, one more fact that may be relevant here is that in 1965, Cyrus Gordon > wrote another book (which I haven't seen yet) entitled: > "The Common Background of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations". > > Question: Is this what Patai is talking about? No. Gordon's Linear A is in many articles and a book called *Evidence for the Minoan Language*. > Question: How is Gordon's book "The Common Background..." regarded by > scholars today? Bernal's discussion of its reception, in *Black Athena* vol. 1, is pretty accurate. > Finally, I have a faint memory of having read in the New York Times > about 7 years ago that the Phoenicians had recently been proved to be > Greeks. I think this had proof had been based on archaeological evidence. The NYT may have reported such a claim, but I've never heard of it, and it does seem rather unlikely. > Question: Is this proof still accepted and, if so, does it tend to support > the conclusions that Patai wished to draw from the results he > attributed to Gordon? "Still"? - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:37:18 -0500 From: stephen goranson Subject: ane Khirbet Qazone cemetery, the Lisan, Jordan As mentioned previously, an interesting cemetery has been discovered in the Lisan peninsula: about 3500 individual shaft graves, aligned north-south (as are the burials at [non-Nabataean] Kh. Qumran). The excavator, Dr. Constantinos (Dino) Politis, dates the cemetery to second century AD and characterizes it as Nabataean. An additional article has appeared on this, "Salvage excavation identifies rare Nabataean cemetery, saves well preserved ancient textiles and leather," by Rami G. Khouri, in his weekly syndicated series, Jordan Antiquity # 80, Oct. 11. Speaking of shrouds, mostly of wool, Politis said, "This is the biggest group of complete textiles ever recovered from the ancient Levant." A new development, not noted in previous publications, is that "some papyrus scrolls associated with the cemetery or its still unidentified settlement" have appeared on the antiquities market. It would appear to be the case that an excavation at the site of the settlement which supplied the burials--to the north?--would be quite worthwhile, and deserving of support. cheers, Stephen Goranson goranson@duke.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:44:12 +-100 From: Aayko Eyma Subject: ane Ane: Poseidon Dear Michael, >> best explained from Greek: Potei-Das, "Husband of the >> (Goddess of) Earth". (...) (like in Da-matEr/DE-mEtEr >>"Earth-Mother") [O=omega, E= eta] >This is indeed a very old tradition. However there are no explicit links leading from Poseidon to Demeter. They rather must remain speculative. Poseidon is no husband of earth but poetically speaking. ***Yes and no. There is in fact one explicit link in Pausanias VIII,25 and 42: The Arkadian myth of how Demeter was grazing as a mare in the Thelpousaian area. Poseidon took on the shape of a stalion and coupled with her. Demeter then bore the divine stallion Areion, which entered into the service of the regional hero Onkios, then of Herakles and finally of Adrastos (Iliad 23:346-7). In other poems this horse is called "Thelpousaian Areion, whom Earth produced", and in an Oracle the Arkadians are called "people of stallion-mated Deo" (Da, DE). Pausanias says it was because of this myth that the Arkadians called Poseidon "Horse Poseidon" (Hippos); VIII, 10,2; 14,5; 25,7. In the rest of Greece, the general title was "Poseidon of Horses" (VII,21,2;V,15,5). The other links are indeed more indirect: - -- The epiteth of Poseidon in the Illias being so very, very often "Earth-shaker" (gaiEochos, enosichthOn, ennosigaios), showing his strong links with the earth. - -- the three gods associated with horses are Poseidon, Demeter (Earth)(*), and Hades (Netherworld). This shows the animal to be chthonic in nature in Greek view, again associating Poseidon with earth. [* Demeter f.e. sits on a horse-skin in the Parthenon frieze, and in Arkadia she was depicted with a horse head (Pausanias VIII,42,4)] - -- the brotherly triad dividing the earth (Iliad 15:187), seems to have been originally: Zeus (Heaven) - Poseidon (Earth) - Hades (Netherworld). When Poseidon was reassigned to the sea, the earth became shared ground. Still the "thirth parts" concept remained to be used in the myth. - -- Ephorus says that the Peloponnesus was the original abode of Poseidon, and that the land was dedicated to him. The Lineair B tablets confirm the predominance of this god in the area (rather than Zeus). Also, 'da' for earth seems to be part of the Arkado-Cypriotic dialect (cf. old Cypriotic word for nymphes: endaides "they who are in the earth"). It seems logical that the link of Poseidon as god of earth and earth-quakes and Poseidon as god of the sea, is formed by the notion of him being the god of the waters under the earth. >On the other side there are no doubts about the nature of Poseidon, fathering (Pegasos), offering (Athens), receiving (Trojan Horse) horses. ****Yes, his association with horses is VERY strong. See also above. We could add: Poseidon rides the chariot with golden-hoofed horses (Iliad 13:23), and is patron of chariot/horse races (Iliad 23:580-584). >(h)ipos - horse, (h)ipotes - horseman, Mycenian upojo? (genitive of an unknown word in a context with upojo potnia) The drop of beginning vowel in Greek is documented in a number of cases. How do you think about this? ***Well, seeing his strong association with horses, I could certainly sympathize with your *direction* of thought. But the linguistic step in this specific case is a bridge too far for me. Do the Lin.B tablets not have a god i-qo? i-qo = Hippos = Poseidon Hippios. So then Mycenian for horse would not be upo- or the like; anyone knows what charioteer (hippota) is in Lin. B? It also would be nice to know whether the gods of earth or of underground waters from Anatolia (Irbitiga, Wurunkatte) or the ANE (Ba'al-Ars, Enki) had any specific association with horses. Best wishes, Aayko Eyma ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:11:05 -0500 From: "Philip H. Sellew" Subject: ane Philistines not Phoenicians Allen or somebody has got Phoenicians and Philistines mixed up. > > Finally, I have a faint memory of having read in the New York Times > > about 7 years ago that the Phoenicians had recently been proved to be > > Greeks. I think this had proof had been based on archaeological evidence. > > The NYT may have reported such a claim, but I've never heard of it, and > it does seem rather unlikely. > > > Question: Is this proof still accepted and, if so, does it tend to support > > the conclusions that Patai wished to draw from the results he > > attributed to Gordon? > > "Still"? > -- > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > > . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 17:05:04 +0200 From: Massimo Montanari Subject: ane Ancient Board-Games I'm a Egyptologist's student in the Bologna University (Italy). I'm working to degree thesis about the board-games in Ancient Egypt and Near East. Who can help me about? Thanks! Best Regard Milena Montanari e-mail: montanari@telcanet.it BAZZANO - BOLOGNA (ITALY) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:20:24 AST From: Tom Simms Subject: ane Tut's Face Hello- Some time back and on another list, perhaps, we discussed the notion that Tut's Face had been reconstructed from scratch and the record of the process was in LIFE magazine. Well, looking for something else, deep in my files (the bottom banker's box of a pile of three used as my perch for telephone directories and rest for my princess phone), I discovered the June 1983 issue of LIFE vol. 6(6) with the whole story in it. (pp. 131-4, "The Face Behind The Mask". Written by Rosemarie Robotham, it tells and shows how Miami orthopedic surgeon and amateur Egyptologist, Patrick Barry, commissioned (for $1,200) Dr. Clyde Snow, forensic anthrpologist, and Betty Pat Gatliffe, medical illustrator, both of Norman, OK to do the job. They, in turn, enlisted Joseph Young, physical anthropologist with the FAA in Oklahoma City, OK, to recreate the skull from the 1975 X-Rays from the Atlas of that time. Gatliffe had plenty of experience, having done many of Wayne Cayce's victims, and apparently followed the technique used by Harrison's man D. J. Kidd, Medical Illustrator for the Dept. of Medicine, U Liverpool, and by Richard Neave, likewise for U Manchester, who restored the face of Philip II of Macedon. The photos are worth the price of admission and more...!!! The resulting image looks more like the Dummy from the tomb than the funerary masks. So began my suspicion the gear was prepared for Smenkh Ka Ra but used for Tut. Tom Simms ................................................................ T. M. SIMMS Suite 611 1720 Hickey Road SAINT JOHN, N. B. E2J 3S7 Phone: 1-506-696-2778 Fax: 1-506-696-2778 e-mail: *++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*++++*+++* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:54:36 -0400 From: Paul Sodtke Subject: Re: ane average lifespan In addition to those studies already cited by several others ... In her article "The roots of restriction: women in early Israel" (_Biblical Archaeologist_ 41/3, Sept. 1978, 91-103), Carol Meyers says that life expectancy in Iron I Palestine was 40 for men, "closer to 30" for women (p. 95). [I suspect this is conventional wisdom on this question, since another post cited similar figures]. As evidence for this, Meyers cites 2 studies: Genoves [acute on the 2nd e], S. 1969 Estimation of Age and Mortality. Pp. 440-52 in _Science in Archaeology_, ed. D. Brothwell & E. Higgs. London: Thames & Hudson. Goldstein, M.S. 1969 The paleopathology of human skeletal remains. Pp. 480-89 in the same book. I'm not certain, however, whether more recent studies have revised these estimates. Paul Sodtke London, Ontario psodtke@execulink.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:46:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: ane To the attention of Maeir Aren Apologies to all for this private message to the list. I'm trying to restore a lost contact. Dear Maeir Aren, last week a couple of messages in reply to yours of 10/01/98 have bounced to me with the error message: Erroneous address was: Maeir@HUM.HUJI.AC.IL (that is, the same address of my first message). The cause escapes me. Can you help? With best regards, Giuseppe Del Monte - -------------- Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:14:36 AST From: Tom Simms Subject: Re: ane Tut's Face On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:23:39 EDT, FucciXXV@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 10/11/98 12:31:12 PM Central Daylight Time, >tsimms@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca writes: > >> Gatliffe had plenty of experience, having done many of Wayne >> Cayce's victims, > >Tom, > >I suspect by this you mean "John Wayne Gacy," with an intriguing Freudian slip >to Edgar Cayce. Your hostility against Cayce-ites like Bauval and Hancock >must be very deep indeed. Well, I had the correct text right in my hands. I thought I was well past the Freudian slip. Would you have caught the error if I'd not omitted "John"? C and G are rather alike... Thank you for the correction. Now I won't have to make it. >Pop-psychologically yours, >Jim Thorn > Be careful or I'll eye-ball you (See Nov 1967 _Perception & Psychophysics 2(11)_, pp. 553-55) Tom Simms ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:35:29 GMT From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Subject: Re: ane Ane: Poseidon Aayko Eyma wrote: [Banyai Michael:] >>(h)ipos - horse, (h)ipotes - horseman, Mycenian upojo? (genitive of an unknown >>word in a context with upojo potnia) >>The drop of beginning vowel in Greek is documented in a number of cases. >>How do you think about this? > >***Well, seeing his strong association with horses, I could >certainly sympathize with your *direction* of thought. But the >linguistic step in this specific case is a bridge too far for me. >Do the Lin.B tablets not have a god i-qo? i-qo = Hippos = >Poseidon Hippios. One might even have expected a *Koseidon to go with Grk.dial. "horse". >So then Mycenian for horse would not be >upo- or the like; For u-po-jo po-ti-ni-ja we can read "mistress of the hunchback" (hubos) or "mistress of the weaving(?)" (huphe:, huphos "weaving, cobweb, net" -- neither is a perfect match, the latter because it's an s-stem [Gen. huphous < *ubho[s]-os, not huphou < *ubho-[s]io]. >anyone knows what charioteer (hippota) is in Lin. B? "Chariot" is i-qi-jo, which is the main argument against interpreting the royal officers called e-qe-ta as "charioteers" (they are rather "followers" = hekwetai, although they do have chariots). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv@wxs.nl Amsterdam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 15:26:50 -0400 From: Irene Riegner Subject: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------8B5FF7304A371FAC927C2D52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------8B5FF7304A371FAC927C2D52 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3620C87D.DD988D54@concentric.net> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:02:21 -0400 From: Irene Riegner Reply-To: iriegner@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FucciXXV@aol.com Subject: Re: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8972D614C266CA9E596CE932" - --------------8972D614C266CA9E596CE932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jim > All the references to )$r turned up by my computer concordance which seem to > be references to Asherah are in Judges, Kings, and Chronicles, except for > Deuteronomy 16:21: > > Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto > the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. > But are these references to Asherah as a consort or wife of Yhvh? Asherah seems to be used in two ways: 1) as the name of a goddess; 2) as a reference to a sacred tree or grove. We have the issue of the the marriage metaphor. In Hoshea and Ezekiel, especially, the marriage metaphor refers to Israel as the wife of god. This would seem to be an ideal place for prophetic criticism of any other conceptualization of a consort of Yhvh---i.e. Asherah. irene - --------------8972D614C266CA9E596CE932 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jim
  
All the references to )$r  turned up by my computer concordance which seem to
be references to Asherah are in Judges, Kings, and Chronicles, except for
Deuteronomy 16:21:

Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto 
the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.
 

But are these references to Asherah as a consort or wife of Yhvh?  Asherah seems to be used in two ways:  1) as the name of a goddess;  2) as a reference to a sacred tree or grove.

We have the issue of the the marriage metaphor.  In Hoshea and Ezekiel, especially, the marriage metaphor refers to Israel as the wife of god.  This would seem to be an ideal place for prophetic criticism of any other conceptualization of a consort of Yhvh---i.e. Asherah.

irene - --------------8972D614C266CA9E596CE932-- - --------------8B5FF7304A371FAC927C2D52-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 13:32:46 +0200 From: "Frank T. De Angelis" Subject: Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Dear Allen, Miguel, Peter, and Philip: Allen Adler wrote: >Cyrus H Gordon of Brandeis University, of the ancient Cretan script >Linear B. His contention is that these inscriptions are in a language >almost identical with Phoenician which, in turn, differs only >dialectically from Hebrew. If his thesis proves correct, and knowing >his scholarship I think it will, this will prove the close cultural >connection between the pre-Israelite Canaan and Crete in the early 2nd >millennium B.C. Viewed against this new scholarly breakthrough, your >comparisons of Hebrew and Greek myths gain added significance. They are >proofs of a cultural connection between the two peoples of the type one >would have to postulate once the linguistic connections are >established." > > This is clearly wrong, because Linear B was deciphered by Michael >Ventris around 1950 and shown to be Greek well before Patai wrote to >Graves. > > Question: Did Cyrus Gordon challenge the work of Michael Ventris by > claiming an alternative decipherment of Linear B? > > Now, one more fact that may be relevant here is that in 1965, Cyrus >Gordon wrote another book (which I haven't seen yet) entitled: > "The Common Background of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations". > > Question: Is this what Patai is talking about? > > Question: How is Gordon's book "The Common Background..." regarded by > scholars today? > > Finally, I have a faint memory of having read in the New York Times > about 7 years ago that the Phoenicians had recently been proved to be > Greeks. I think this had proof had been based on archaeological >evidence. Many things come to my mind with this discussion. Firstly, yes - as Philip H. succinctly notes, the problem of identifying --and not confusing-- Phoenicians and/with Philistines. Both, however, regardless of how distinct they are, have been associated with/as biblical *Sea Peoples,* and one cannot be absolutely sure of their inseparability. Secondly, once again, we have the distinct problem of (i.e., the arbitrariness of) semantics. Obviously, we are going to get bogged down in word games, here. Would we not consider the Phoenicians early/pre-Greeks? And then - thirdly, and especially in memory of -- and within the tradition of-- Cyrus Gordon, would we not postulate on the Ugaritic influence on Canaanite-Syrian and, hence, also on the biblical Hebrew development, both in terms of linguistics (written transliterations) and religio-cultural (stories, pantheon[s], and key conceptual terms) terminology? Take another look at the Ugaritic--> Minoan --> Hebrew comparisons made by Gordon in his _Ugarit and Minoan Crete_ (1966), and then look at Michael Coogan's _Stories From Ancient Canaan_ (1978). Personally, I took the implications of these writings, especially when analyzed in terms of their Ugaritic to Minoan to biblical Hebrew time periods (with the latter dated, beginning circa 922-722 BCE, in line with, e.g., R.E. Friedman), as a causal (and, obviously, somewhat of a concurrently shared) relationship, and boldly stuck my neck out in assuming and concluding what Gordon meant on page 8 of his Intro., by *...following them to their logical conclusions.* Early enigmatic Phoenician inscriptions, as undecipherable as they may be, clearly show Egyptian hieroglyphic influence, along with the beginning letters of what later forms the early Attic Greek alphabet. The calligraphy is unmistakable, just as the corroborative evidence of the Philistine pantheon is, beginning with Dagon, and (the Ugaritic) Baal and Asherah (At[h]irat). There is absolutely no doubt that the Egyptians had this influence upon the Phoenicians and their early/pre- alphabetical writings, just as there is no doubt that the Mesopotamians had to have had a peculiar -- and, at minimum, a-- calligraphical influence on the Ugaritic cuneiform writing; however, exactly how these played out on the Greeks or pre-Israelite Hebrews, is up for grabs - no? Suffice it to say, that all of the above influences, regardless of Ugaritic, Phoenician, and Philistine differences (e.g., whether specifically written/linguistic/alphabetical, cultural, religious, etc.), occur PRIOR to the BIBLICAL HEBREW, and that THIS is precisely the crux of where the (other ANE) *YAWEH'S CONSORT, ASHERAH,* Cyrus Gordon, and the present *two random details /Phoenican-Philistine-Hebrew discussions necessarily *beg-the-question* of going back to. Once again, I point to pre-Israelite Canaan as being instrumental in any and all analyses. And, beyond any speculation concerning early Hittite, Hurrian, Anatolian, Phoenician, Philistinian, etc. influences, I feel that ignoring the abundant, clear, and primordial Ugaritic writings is tantamount to intellectual negligence and suicide. Sunday (Shamash-Shapash) thoughts from... F.T. De Angelis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:54:40 +0200 From: "Frank T. De Angelis" Subject: Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] Dear Irene Riegner: What are the facts and what are the inductively strong assumptions? Well... (1) Based strictly on the Bible, there is no mention of *asherah,* other than in a pejorative sense, i.e., in priestly caste opposition to the remnants of the traditional pre-Israelite/Hebrew/Judaic polytheistic asherah worship. (2) There are well known Israelite archeological finds (inscriptions), with the phrase, *yahweh's consort, asherah,* complementing -- and in accordance with-- most other polytheistic religions of ancient Canaan-Syria, etc. It seems, most likely -- especially in light of the earlier (pre-biblical Hebrew writings of circa 922-722 BCE)-- that Ugaritic writings (with the widest parameters, ranging - circa 1400-1100 BCE) on asherah/at(h)irat indicate that the evolution of Judaism was from these strong and original polytheistic beginnings. Later on, the consolidation of monotheistic Judaism, via the strength of the priestly caste(s) and the mainstream political-religious leaders/biblical redactionist authors - post-Solomonic, suggest a re-inventing/ re-interpreting process amidst controversy and conflict. Naturally, all Talmudic--> Midrashic analyses and commentaries since then will only further extend the biblical accounts as pre-and/or current biblical accounts, when they are, in all probability - and reality, nothing more than postbiblical, ad hoc anecdotal commentaries - in retrospect. This, to me, seems to be the only sensible unfolding scenario - as it had to have evolved. F.T. de Angelis http://home.fda.net/~spartacus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:20:48 EDT From: FucciXXV@aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] In a message dated 10/11/98 5:05:38 PM Central Daylight Time, spartacus@fda.net writes: > (2) There are well known Israelite archeological finds (inscriptions), > with the phrase, *yahweh's consort, asherah,* complementing -- and in > accordance with-- most other polytheistic religions of ancient > Canaan-Syria, etc. I only recall hearing about one, an ostracon from Lachish (at least, I think it was Lachish) that says "yahweh and his asherah" under pictographs of three figures: two male, one female, with the female and one male being grouped in couple-like fashion and the other male off to the side. Are there others? (By the way, how is that one dated? I can't find the magazine article in which I read about it anywhere in the mess on my bookshelves.) Jim Thorn Chicago, IL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:32:50 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Frank T. De Angelis wrote: > early/pre-Greeks? And then - thirdly, and especially in memory of -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and within the tradition of-- Cyrus Gordon, would we not postulate on What does that mean?? > Early enigmatic Phoenician inscriptions, as undecipherable as they may > be, clearly show Egyptian hieroglyphic influence, along with the > beginning letters of what later forms the early Attic Greek alphabet. What "undecipherable enigmatic Phoenician inscriptions" are you talking about?? - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:37:50 -0400 From: David Meadows Subject: ane The Ancient World on Television (North America) ******************************************************** The Ancient World on Television (North America) October 12-18 Compiled from Various Sources (All times Eastern) ********************************************************* Next Installment on or about October 18 ********************************************************* Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow Canucks! All times EDT: *****Monday, October 12 4.30 p.m. PBS Wishbone Homer Sweet Homer All dogs go to Ithaca? *****Tuesday, October 13 8.00 p.m. HISTU England's Great Wall Keeping those nasty Pict types out ... 8.00 p.m. HISTC Destination History Ancient Lives ? *****Wednesday, October 14 8.00 p.m. HISTU England's Lost Castles All about the timber castles which once dominated England's landscape. 8.00 p.m. HISTC Struggle for Democracy Episode? 10.00 p.m. DISCU Signature Series Amber and Pearls The history of two "organic" gems ... *****Thursday, October 15 8.00 p.m. HISTU The Missing Princes of England Did Richard III murder Edward V and his brother? *****Friday, October 18 8.00 p.m. HISTU England's Theatres of Blood Theatre in the 17th century ... 9.00 p.m. HISTU Movie Fall of the Roman Empire Alec Guiness and Sophia Lauren in the 1964 classic flick ... *****Saturday, October 17 7.00 p.m. A&E Mysteries of the Bible Archenemy: The Philistines Is it my imagination or is this one on a couple times every month? 9.00 p.m. A&E Love in the Ancient World Kathleen Turner narrates ... it must be sweeps week ... *****Sunday, October 18 12.00 p.m. A&E Mysteries of the Bible Heaven and Hell Oft repeated ... 5.00 p.m. HISTU Battle of the Clans Warriors in kilts ... 2 hours worth! ____________________________________________ *** Newsflash **** The Atrium is undergoing a massive facelift cum relaunch over the first couple of weeks of September and the first thing which will be affected are the web version of the AWOTV listings. Beginning sometime on Monday, the web version of these listings will include the listings from the past week (to see what you missed), the present week (which you now get), and the next week (to get an idea of what's coming up ... subject to change). As the months progress, I will be putting up webpages for various shows which will give more detailed descriptions, additional bibliography, and links to websites dealing with subject matter which complements (but not necessarily compliments) the programs as well. The web version of these listings can be found at: http://web.idirect.com/~atrium/awotv.html ____________________________________________________________________ Copyright (c) 1998 David Meadows. Feel free to distribute these listings via email to your pals, students, teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. Please do not post these listings to your website, but rather make a link to: http://web.idirect.com/~atrium/awotv.html The email version goes out Sunday evening; the web version goes up Monday morning (as a general rule) Thanks! _________________________________________ ]|[ David Meadows ]|[ http://web.idirect.com/~atrium ]|[ ========================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 21:47:48 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon Subject: Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] FucciXXV@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/98 5:05:38 PM Central Daylight Time, > spartacus@fda.net writes: > > > (2) There are well known Israelite archeological finds (inscriptions), > > with the phrase, *yahweh's consort, asherah,* complementing -- and in > > accordance with-- most other polytheistic religions of ancient > > Canaan-Syria, etc. > > I only recall hearing about one, an ostracon from Lachish (at least, I think > it was Lachish) that says "yahweh and his asherah" under pictographs of three > figures: two male, one female, with the female and one male being grouped in > couple-like fashion and the other male off to the side. Are there others? > (By the way, how is that one dated? I can't find the magazine article in > which I read about it anywhere in the mess on my bookshelves.) I think you are thinking of the pithoi excavated at Kuntillet `Ajrud in the Sinai. The inscriptions concerning Yahweh and his consort Asherah are from the 8th century BCE. One Pithos has the inscription that refers to Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah, another Yahweh of Teman (probably Edom) and his Asherah. There is another "Blessed by Yahweh..and by His Asherah inscription found in an Iron Age tomb near Hebron. There have been a number of articles in BAR over this issue including one article depicting statuettes of the goddess similar to the one I have. Like you, my bookshelves are a mess but even if they were in order, you know the rule...when you need an article for reference, you'll never find it. Jack - -- ______________________________________________ Min d'LA rokHEM l'maRAN yeSHUa meshyCHA niheYAH. maRAN aTHA Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:31:44 +0200 From: "Frank T. De Angelis" Subject: Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > Frank T. De Angelis wrote: > > > early/pre-Greeks? And then - thirdly, and especially in memory of -- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > and within the tradition of-- Cyrus Gordon > What does that mean?? (1) Sorry for the apparently deceptive wording. I simply meant to draw from the authority of a not-so current giant in Ugaritic-Minoan studies. > > Early enigmatic Phoenician inscriptions, as undecipherable as they >> may be, clearly show Egyptian hieroglyphic influence, along with the > > beginning letters of what later forms the early Attic Greek >>alphabet. > > What "undecipherable enigmatic Phoenician inscriptions" are you talking > about?? > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > -- (2) I was referring to the scarab cartouches and other hieroglyphs, along with Kappas, Upsilons, Xis, etc. - found within inscriptions from Byblos (possibly as far back as the 2nd millennium). I'm looking at plates from Joseph Naveh's _Early History Of The Alphabet_. F.T. De Angelis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:17:47 +0200 From: "Frank T. De Angelis" Subject: Re: [Fwd: ane Israel's ashera: a hypothesis] FucciXXV@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/98 5:05:38 PM Central Daylight Time, > spartacus@fda.net writes: > > > (2) There are well known Israelite archeological finds >>(inscriptions), with the phrase, *yahweh's consort, asherah,* >>complementing -- and in accordance with-- most other polytheistic >>religions of ancient Canaan-Syria, etc. > > I only recall hearing about one, an ostracon from Lachish (at least, I >think it was Lachish) that says "yahweh and his asherah" under >pictographs of three figures: two male, one female, with the female and >one male being grouped in couple-like fashion and the other male off to >the side. Are there others? > (By the way, how is that one dated? I can't find the magazine article >in which I read about it anywhere in the mess on my bookshelves.) > > Jim Thorn > Chicago, IL Dear Jim Thorn: I need to look around my mess, too. In my book, I use a lot of secondary sources (e.g., Michael Coogan and Bruce Metzger, eds., _The Oxford Companion to The Bible_, 1993, p. 52) and cross-cultural comparative allusions and analogies (including the speculative and peripheral *yw-el* son and consort references, all the way from the Ugaritic to the much later Gnostic-Coptic), but --it is true-- that there is the eighth c. BCE inscription, *Yahweh and his Asherah* adjacent to the painting found at *Kuntillet Ajrud near Kadesh-barnea.* I believe there were also tomb inscriptions, such as these: *And from his enemies save him by his Asherah" and "May -X- be blessed by Yahweh of Samaria and by his Asherah." (So, here - at least, it appears that the Asherah in question could belong to the tenant of the tomb rather than to Yahweh.) Sorry. Off hand, this is the best I can do at the moment; mostly from rote memory. Sincerely, F.T. De Angelis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:27:19 -0400 (EDT) From: morsil@webtv.net Subject: ane Egyptian origin of Israelite cultic organization? Exodus (4.14-17, 29-30; cf. Ps. 105.26-27) describes a division ol labor in the newly formed Israelite cult. One order of "priests" , represented by Moses, performed the ritual actions ("signs") while a second order, represented by Aaron, supplied the interpretation ("words"). This specialization seems to reflect Egyptian practice as known in the New Kingdom. My understanding is that "signs" were in the province of the Celebrant (sem or setem) and "words" were supplied by the Reader (kherheb or "Holder of the Roll" or lector). Both actions and utterances are enumerated in service books. If this interpretation is accurate we may well wonder about the origin and motivation of the attempt to explain the historical cult structure in terms of Moses' speech defect (Exod. 4.10). Reactions appreciated. Best, Morris Morris Silver Department of Economics City College of New York ANCIENT ECONOMIES I http://members.tripod.com/~sondmor/index.html ANCIENT ECONOMIES II http://www.angelfire.com/ms/ancecon/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 21:03:09 +0200 From: "Frank T. De Angelis" Subject: Re: ane two random details/(Ugarit-Asherah as Yahweh's Consort, NOT * Philistines, not Phoenicians*?) Frank T. De Angelis wrote: > (2) I was referring to the scarab cartouches and other hieroglyphs, > along with Kappas, Upsilons, Xis, etc. - found within inscriptions ^^^ Correction: meant *Chi s* (Additions/detailed, Phoenician/early Attic Greek[might as well]: *I see scarab pictographic --> letter *N* hieroglyphs within cartouches, along with aleps/alphas, gimels/gammas, dalets/deltas, yods/iotas, kaps/kappas, s[h]ins/sigmas, taws/taus, and quasi- upsilons, chis, etc...* F.T. De Angelis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 00:57:57 +0000 From: Jim West Subject: Re: ane Egyptian origin of Israelite cultic organization? At 11:27 PM 10/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >This specialization seems to reflect Egyptian practice as known in the >New Kingdom. My understanding is that "signs" were in the province of >the Celebrant (sem or setem) and "words" were supplied by the Reader >(kherheb or "Holder of the Roll" or lector). Both actions and utterances >are enumerated in service books. > >If this interpretation is accurate we may well wonder about the origin >and motivation of the attempt to explain the historical cult structure >in terms of Moses' speech defect (Exod. 4.10). Hey- Your statement presupposes a few things that are not really established as fact: 1- That Moses was an actual historical personage 2- That Moses learned from the Egyptians how religious ceremonies were performed. 3- That Moses transmitted that knowledge to the Israelites. 4- That the Israelites would continue performing rituals in an Egyptian manner even after leaving the land of their hated captors. 5- That the laws prescribed actually stem from Moses and are not a series of post exilic retrojections. Now, to be sure- all of these presuppositions may be true. But they may not. To answer your original question- all of these and maybe other questions need to be addressed first. > >Reactions appreciated. > >Best, >Morris Best, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:14:50 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= GHEMBAZA Subject: ane Acknowledgements Dear ane list members, I wish to thank all those who among you have answered so precisely to my questions. But as I am not a specialist I regret not to be able to pursue the discussion with them. However, I continue to follow with interest and a great attention the debates engaged, which will be of great benefice for teaching me. So my contribution to your list could be only to submit new suggestions to your pluri-disciplinar expertise to allow very ancient problems to be re-examined. I will very much appreciate the constructive critics of those who will kindly spend a little part of their time to communicate with me. _____ Thérèse Ghembaza Tél. 33 1 42 88 60 04 Fax 33 1 44 96 31 46 E-mail : ghembaza@idf.inserm.fr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:19:26 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= GHEMBAZA Subject: ane The origin of the name of Demeter To the linguists : For the etymology of Demeter, I propose "the second mother", because according to a cretan tradition Persephone had had a son (named Zagreus) from her own father (Zeus). So her mother Demeter had taken care of the child as he was hers. By other part, another tradition related to Dionysos (also an avatar of Zagreus) attributes to him the nickname of "Dimeter", the one who had two mothers. Thérèse Ghembaza Tél. 33 1 42 88 60 04 Fax 33 1 44 96 31 46 E-mail : ghembaza@idf.inserm.fr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:24:21 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= GHEMBAZA Subject: ane The burning of red-haired Egyptians To Steve Berland, Concerning the tradition reported by Manetho saying that ancient egyptians used to burn red-haired men and that this sacrifice was offered by kings to the grave of Osiris, in my opinion I think that the victimes represented the murder of Osiris, this latter being considered as king Sekenenre (XVIIth dynasty) assassinated by order of the hyksos ruler Aa-kenenre Apophis who was represented as a reddish-skin hippopotamus. Presumably Aa-kenenre was a red-haired man as later was Ramses II, probably a lointain descendant of the same "asiatic" (?) family in the eastern delta. Thérèse Ghembaza Tél. 33 1 42 88 60 04 Fax 33 1 44 96 31 46 E-mail : ghembaza@idf.inserm.fr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:31:33 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= GHEMBAZA Subject: ane Adonai, Poseidon and Seth To the linguists : Thank you for the PIE theory. Now I will submit the problem to the Egyptologists and I will transfer you the responses if they are interesting. Thérèse Ghembaza Tél. 33 1 42 88 60 04 Fax 33 1 44 96 31 46 E-mail : ghembaza@idf.inserm.fr ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #282 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html