From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1998 #362 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Thursday, December 31 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 362 Re: ane Linear A and Ninuwa ane Linear A and Ninuwa ane Minoans in 1200 BCE? Re: ane Akkad. ki$$atu and Egypt. x3st ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:38:35 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: Re: ane Linear A and Ninuwa E. Adams wrote: > Libyan, or whatever we wish to call the presumably Afro-Asiatic [though > possibly Nilo-Saharan]-speaking peoples west of Egypt during the Old > Kingdom, could have reached Crete by sea [the famous Thera mural > commemorating a naval invasion by "tufty-headed Libyans"!]... Well, it would be sound to restrain, when speaking about this nilotic landscape from the Theran mural, to an area about we know (archaeologically speaking) of a real Cretan presence. That is east of the Nile and not Lybia. > When the Minoans ventured across the Sahara they did it through Libya > didn't they? [flying chariots, 1200 BC?] The ancients spoke of an > early legendary people of Crete called the Telchines [tl-H-nw?], who > settled Rhodes, then perished in a flood. This is quite far fetched, since you have just behind the doors of Rodos the exemple of the hittite Telepinu. The switch from k to p in IE is well known. > [Pauly's under Lycus gives him as one of the Telchines This brings him once more in contact with a local Rodian etimology, since this is the eponimous ancestor of the Lykians/Lukka of the Hettite sources. > as in the > Biblical tribes of Mizraim, one of which was Caphtorim, one Lehabim]. There is much confusion about the name of Mizraim. In first place it is a semitic one, later, in consequence of the Hicksos conquest, labelled on the Egyptians. But even Josephus knew, it belonged to a people once inhabiting the zone between the river of Egypt (Besor dialectal form of Misor) and Sile. The answer, why there are no traces left of the name of the Hicksos, besides the Egyptian sources, is: their name is "Meluhha popularly known as Musri". The title hekaw khasout (Hicksos) is an almost literal loan from the Akkadian: sar kissati (usually translated as king of the world) the supreme royal title. Akk. kissati as well as Eg. khasout underlies also the meaning of hill-country: Kissati= Sanatu= hill. It is the title the Hyksos rulers used in their in Akkadian written international correspondence, instead of the homeused Kanaanite variant. The very tradition of this Akkadian correspondence is reflected by the Amarna letters. Hicksos was not only a royal title but also a country name because Meluhha might be retraced to a Kanaanite Melek = king as well as the first part of the Hicksos title, Egyptian hekaw = king/ruler. There is therefore no wonder to see the Kaphtorim, who where maintaining in this very region a number of ports (archaeologically well present but also according to the biblical account Deut. 2 XXIII), as derived from Musri. The mythical Lybian links of the Greek are nowhere substantiated by archaeology. It is much more probable the mythical Lybia were in fact the forgotten land of "mat lubu", of the old Assyrian karum time sources, Luwia for us. This would solve some problems of the mythical geography, where for exemple Iason jumps with the golden fleece directly from the pontian Aietes to Lybia, and so on. Regards, Banyai Michael Leonberg Banyai@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:50:42 +0100 From: "Bjarte Kaldhol" Subject: ane Linear A and Ninuwa Dear listmembers, I think this discussion is now getting too speculative (even to my taste). Ninuwa and Padua cannot be related to Southern Cushitic and Hausa names, and there was probably very little (if any) contact between Egypt and the Aegean before the beginning or middle of the 2nd millennium. The early Egyptian objects found in Crete can be explained as imports via Syria. The Thera paintings may have nothing to do with Libyans; Syrian influences are more probable, and "a naval invasion of tufty-headed Libyans" is not likely. That the Minoans "ventured across the Sahara", is unknown to me. Telipinu is a Hattic name. But I have a question: Was there a town Akharne in the southern Orontes valley, and when is this name first attested? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:44 -0800 From: Louise Hitchcock Subject: ane Minoans in 1200 BCE? There were Aegean peoples living on Crete in 1200 BCE. How 'Minoan' they were is debatable. There are very few remnants of Minoan culture by this time. Louise Dr. Louise A. Hitchcock Research Associate, UCLA Von Grunebaum Center for Near Eastern Studies 310-825-9639 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:15:15 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane Akkad. ki$$atu and Egypt. x3st ? Dear Michael, It has been long accepted among Assyriologists that the origin of the royal epithet $ar ki$$ati "king of the (entire inhabited) world" as part of the standard Assyrian titulary is the earlier Sumerian epithet LUGAL KI$ "king of Ki$" where Ki$ is the name of a key city-state in the Old Akkadian period and also the Sumerian logogram for Akkadian ki$$atu. Whoever had the title of "king of Ki$" could then claim hegemony over all of lower Mesopotamia. The actual title $ar ki$$ati continued being used by Mesopotamian kings long after Ki$ was incorporated into nearby Babylon and ceased being an independent political entity. How could there possibly be any connection between Akk. ki$$atu and Egyptian x3st "hill-country, foreign-land, desert, etc." Has any reputable Egyptologist accepted such an etymology? All the best, Chaim Cohen On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Banyai wrote: > E. Adams wrote: > > > Libyan, or whatever we wish to call the presumably Afro-Asiatic [though > > possibly Nilo-Saharan]-speaking peoples west of Egypt during the Old > > Kingdom, could have reached Crete by sea [the famous Thera mural > > commemorating a naval invasion by "tufty-headed Libyans"!]... > > Well, it would be sound to restrain, when speaking about this nilotic landscape > from the Theran mural, to an area about we know (archaeologically speaking) of a > real Cretan presence. That is east of the Nile and not Lybia. > > > When the Minoans ventured across the Sahara they did it through Libya > > didn't they? [flying chariots, 1200 BC?] The ancients spoke of an > > early legendary people of Crete called the Telchines [tl-H-nw?], who > > settled Rhodes, then perished in a flood. > > This is quite far fetched, since you have just behind the doors of Rodos the > exemple of the hittite Telepinu. The switch from k to p in IE is well known. > > > [Pauly's under Lycus gives him as one of the Telchines > > This brings him once more in contact with a local Rodian etimology, since this > is the eponimous ancestor of the Lykians/Lukka of the Hettite sources. > > > as in the > > Biblical tribes of Mizraim, one of which was Caphtorim, one Lehabim]. > > There is much confusion about the name of Mizraim. In first place it is a > semitic one, later, in consequence of the Hicksos conquest, labelled on the > Egyptians. But even Josephus knew, it belonged to a people once inhabiting the > zone between the river of Egypt (Besor dialectal form of Misor) and Sile. > The answer, why there are no traces left of the name of the Hicksos, besides the > Egyptian sources, is: their name is "Meluhha popularly known as Musri". > The title hekaw khasout (Hicksos) is an almost literal loan from the Akkadian: > sar kissati (usually translated as king of the world) the supreme royal title. > Akk. kissati as well as Eg. khasout underlies also the meaning of hill-country: > Kissati= Sanatu= hill. It is the title the Hyksos rulers used in their in > Akkadian written international correspondence, instead of the homeused Kanaanite > variant. The very tradition of this Akkadian correspondence is reflected by the > Amarna letters. > > Hicksos was not only a royal title but also a country name because Meluhha might > be retraced to a Kanaanite Melek = king as well as the first part of the Hicksos > title, Egyptian hekaw = king/ruler. > > There is therefore no wonder to see the Kaphtorim, who where maintaining in this > very region a number of ports (archaeologically well present but also according > to the biblical account Deut. 2 XXIII), as derived from Musri. > > The mythical Lybian links of the Greek are nowhere substantiated by archaeology. > It is much more probable the mythical Lybia were in fact the forgotten land of > "mat lubu", of the old Assyrian karum time sources, Luwia for us. This would > solve some problems of the mythical geography, where for exemple Iason jumps > with the golden fleece directly from the pontian Aietes to Lybia, and so on. > > Regards, > > Banyai Michael > Leonberg > Banyai@t-online.de > ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1998 #362 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html