From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1999 #70 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Thursday, March 11 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 070 ane Artemis of Ephesus statue ane Artemis and the bear Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. ane Artemis and the bear Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. RE: ane dream interpretation, ctd. ane Re: Egyptian Pyramids ane Nouvelle publication ane Re: adad-guppi RE: ane dream interpretation, ctd. ane Re: Daniel (was dream interpretation) ane AMUQ TALK Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. ane Yarshater Visiting Fellowship in Iranian Studies - Harvard ane Arab Miss Israel Re: ane Artemis and the bear Re: ane Artemis and the bear ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Fwd: ane Re: Egyptian Pyramids RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) ane Artemis and Fertility RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Re: ane: nitocris and adad-guppi Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Re: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:10:24 -0800 From: John Bimson Subject: ane Artemis of Ephesus statue On taking a close look at a photo of the best-known statue of Artemis from Ephesus, two things struck me: 1. the rows of smooth protuberances are clearly part of her tunic, not her body, and 2. if they are breasts 'designed to emphasize lactation' (Steve Berlant) why isn't a single one of them equipped with a nipple? Include me in the bull-testicles school (provisionally at least). John Bimson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:07:55 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: ane Artemis and the bear I am now personally taking slowly distance to my own "bear-conection", call it "breast-conection". However it remains interesting to ask what could have the testicles in the overhang of the statue to do with Artemis? We know about selfcastration rites in Lydia connected with the Kybele cult. Could this be something simmilar? Banyai Michael Leonberg Banyai@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:49:12 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. dear Hayim, Michael will of course have to decide if the information you offer is relevant to his request, but I would add that if it is he should see Weinfeld's article from Shnaton several years ago on speaking from behind the curtain (me'aharey happargod) in Mesopotamia and Rabbinic literature. This article has recently shown up in English gorab but I don't recall where. Victor On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, chaim cohen wrote: > Dear Michael, > I think that what you are looking for is especially the work of the > professional $a:'ilu with respect to dream interpretation. For > references, see CAD,$/1,111-112 (esp. meaning 1b on p. 111), where the > bibliography includes Oppenheim, Dream-book, 221ff.; and see also > CAD,$/3,406, meaning b (sub $uttu "dream"). Let me add that the question > of a deity interpreting the dream which he himself reveals to the dreamer > is of course reminiscent of Ea's making Utnapishtim see dreams and thus he > comprehended (i$me) [as it were without Ea's interpretation] the secret of > the gods (Gilg. XI:187; cf. Atra-hasi:s II:iii:7-10 according to the > analysis of W. L. Moran, "Some Considerations of Form and Interpretation > in Atra-hasi:s" LANGUAGE, LITERATURE AND HISTORY [=E. Reiner FS] (New > Haven, 1987), 251. In other words, in this case Ea made sure that even > though he couldn't tell Atra-hasi:s the secret of the gods directly > (because he [Ea] was sworn to secrecy), he revealed the secret to him in a > dream in such a way that no further interpretation was needed. > All the best, > Chaim Cohen > > On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Michael Fox wrote: > > > Thanks to those who answered my query. > > Since it led to some discussion, I'll continue it here. > > I was not asking about the divinely sent dreams, which are miriad, but > > about divinely interpreted ones, ie in which a god decodes his own > > symbolic message. > > > > Victor Horowitz pointed out one such case: the dream of Gudea, which > > his monther the goddess Nanshe interprets. Still, Nanshe is acting as > > a priestess rather than a goddess, ie she is decoding a symbolic > > message sent from a higher sphere and *she* is the decoder, using her > > own wisdom, rather than simply receiving the message en-claire from > > above.. (Perhaps she could be compared to Gabriel, but he is not > > exercising his own wisdom). Nanshe is given the title of Sal.ensi of > > the gods, which suggests that she is acting in a human-like role, not > > in a divine role. > > > > What I am wondering about is the significance of having symbolic > > dreams & visions interpreted by the same source that sends them, esp > > in Daniel. It seems to me that the point is to undermine the > > significance of human wisdom by making "wisdom" coterminous with the > > divine communication itself. It's a bit different in prophetic visions > > (eg Zecharia) because the prophet does not operate through wisdom to > > start with. > > > > Oppenheim (221) says that "the interpreter may turn for verification > > of proposed interpretations or, directly, for an unequivocally worded > > message to the very source of the dream, that is, to the deity"--by > > magic or prayer. But its not clear what cases he's referring to or > > what kind of responses the prayer brings. . > > > > Michael Fox > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:46:10 -0500 (EST) From: sbudin@sas.upenn.edu (Stephanie Budin) Subject: ane Artemis and the bear The relationship between Artemis and the bull testicles is fertility. On the statue from Ephesos the goddess' dress is completely covered with animal and fertility images (evidently the goddess' main role in Carian cult). I do not believe that the testicles are intended to be more specific to the goddess than, say, the images of goats on her apron, but that they all fall under the category of "animal fertility stuff." By contrast (and comparison), the Carian statue of Aphrodite at Aphrodisia is covered with a dress decorated with images of graces and erotes. The "clothing" of the deity is clearly meant to display that goddess's characteristics in the Carian tradition. Stephanie Budin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:03:58 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. Dear Michael, If you're looking for some sort of parallel to Daniel, I think his closest counterpart is the Moreh Hazzedeq from Peher Habakkuk who is empowered to interpret scripture. Teh book of Habakuk is a divine revelation, and the Moreh Hazzedeq is the one qualified to interpret it, not out of any particular intelligence or literary abiltiy but because he too has a prophetic ability. So Daniel interprets the prophetic words of Jeremiah bacause of a revelation. There is a process of distancing the divine word from the audience and a chain of interpretation develops. God may reveal his message to an individual in a dream which needs no interpretation. He can also make his word known in a symbolic dream which does requre interpretation. Joseph is a qualified interpreted because of his divine spirit which both he and Pharoah acknowledge. Daniel is one step further removed because his interpretation of prophetic word written in scripture is made possible by the revelation of an angel. Victor On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Michael Fox wrote: > Thanks to those who answered my query. > Since it led to some discussion, I'll continue it here. > I was not asking about the divinely sent dreams, which are miriad, but > about divinely interpreted ones, ie in which a god decodes his own > symbolic message. > > Victor Horowitz pointed out one such case: the dream of Gudea, which > his monther the goddess Nanshe interprets. Still, Nanshe is acting as > a priestess rather than a goddess, ie she is decoding a symbolic > message sent from a higher sphere and *she* is the decoder, using her > own wisdom, rather than simply receiving the message en-claire from > above.. (Perhaps she could be compared to Gabriel, but he is not > exercising his own wisdom). Nanshe is given the title of Sal.ensi of > the gods, which suggests that she is acting in a human-like role, not > in a divine role. > > What I am wondering about is the significance of having symbolic > dreams & visions interpreted by the same source that sends them, esp > in Daniel. It seems to me that the point is to undermine the > significance of human wisdom by making "wisdom" coterminous with the > divine communication itself. It's a bit different in prophetic visions > (eg Zecharia) because the prophet does not operate through wisdom to > start with. > > Oppenheim (221) says that "the interpreter may turn for verification > of proposed interpretations or, directly, for an unequivocally worded > message to the very source of the dream, that is, to the deity"--by > magic or prayer. But its not clear what cases he's referring to or > what kind of responses the prayer brings. . > > Michael Fox > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:20:16 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane dream interpretation, ctd. Victor, This is interesting about Daniel interpreting Jeremiah's word. This must be the beginning of the notion of pesher. Daniel is saying that Jeremiah didn't really know the full import of his message, only Daniel knows. He is also saying that the message revealed to Jeremiah was not intended for Jeremiah's audience, but for Daniel's. I don't think it is so much distancing the divine word from the audience as distancing it from the speaker. That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing that the new one is the one intended all along. Liz This is off Michael's topic, I realize. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > Behalf Of avigdor horovitz > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 9:04 AM > To: Michael Fox > Cc: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > Subject: Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. > > > Dear Michael, > If you're looking for some sort of parallel to Daniel, I think his closest > counterpart is the Moreh Hazzedeq from Peher Habakkuk who is empowered to > interpret scripture. Teh book of Habakuk is a divine revelation, and the > Moreh Hazzedeq is the one qualified to interpret it, not out of any > particular intelligence or literary abiltiy but because he too has a > prophetic ability. So Daniel interprets the prophetic words of Jeremiah > bacause of a revelation. There is a process of distancing the divine word > from the audience and a chain of interpretation develops. God may reveal > his message to an individual in a dream which needs no interpretation. He > can also make his word known in a symbolic dream which does requre > interpretation. Joseph is a qualified interpreted because of his divine > spirit which both he and Pharoah acknowledge. Daniel is one step further > removed because his interpretation of prophetic word written in scripture > is made possible by the revelation of an angel. > Victor > On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Michael Fox wrote: > > > Thanks to those who answered my query. > > Since it led to some discussion, I'll continue it here. > > I was not asking about the divinely sent dreams, which are miriad, but > > about divinely interpreted ones, ie in which a god decodes his own > > symbolic message. > > > > Victor Horowitz pointed out one such case: the dream of Gudea, which > > his monther the goddess Nanshe interprets. Still, Nanshe is acting as > > a priestess rather than a goddess, ie she is decoding a symbolic > > message sent from a higher sphere and *she* is the decoder, using her > > own wisdom, rather than simply receiving the message en-claire from > > above.. (Perhaps she could be compared to Gabriel, but he is not > > exercising his own wisdom). Nanshe is given the title of Sal.ensi of > > the gods, which suggests that she is acting in a human-like role, not > > in a divine role. > > > > What I am wondering about is the significance of having symbolic > > dreams & visions interpreted by the same source that sends them, esp > > in Daniel. It seems to me that the point is to undermine the > > significance of human wisdom by making "wisdom" coterminous with the > > divine communication itself. It's a bit different in prophetic visions > > (eg Zecharia) because the prophet does not operate through wisdom to > > start with. > > > > Oppenheim (221) says that "the interpreter may turn for verification > > of proposed interpretations or, directly, for an unequivocally worded > > message to the very source of the dream, that is, to the deity"--by > > magic or prayer. But its not clear what cases he's referring to or > > what kind of responses the prayer brings. . > > > > Michael Fox > > Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY 10012 lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu lizfried@umich.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:16:16 +0100 From: "Raphael Antonini" Subject: ane Re: Egyptian Pyramids Replying to Laban Stoke: I had the chance to visit Giza and Saqqara complexes last year and I must admit that the magnificence of the sites looses a bit when the eyes come down to the coke cans and camel excrements... of course the worse expoliation of the sites (especially Giza) happened during arabic occupation when the pyramids themselves where used as quarries. On the other hand, since I live in Italy, I'm not in the best position to criticize egyptian government's politics of archeological conservation seen the way our own Conservation national department handles the situation here... and it's a sad thing to admit that. The problem exposed by Stoke is a serious one and concerns all of us, independently of the civilization considered. Of course that should not lead to autocommiseration but must be a vault to continue a (respectful) pression on the governments in order to protect our heritage. Best regards Raphael Antonini ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:40:31 +0100 From: Martin SAUVAGE Subject: ane Nouvelle publication Vient de paraitre: La brique et sa mise en oeuvre en Mesopotamie. Des origines a l'epoque achemenide, par Martin Sauvage, 482 p., 70 fig., 54 pl., 22 cartes, index. Centre de Recherche d'Archeologie Orientale de l'Universite de Paris I, no 13. Editions Recherche sur les Civilisations, Paris, 1998, 290 FF, ISBN 2-86538-272-9. (ERC, 34 rue la Perouse, 75775 Paris cedex 16, France). La brique, sechee au soleil ou cuite au four, fut le materiau de construction quasi-exclusif de la Mesopotamie et l'est restee jusqu'a une epoque recente. On en trouve un echo dans le mythe biblique de la tour de Babel : "La brique leur servit de pierre et le bitume leur servit de mortier." La brique est apparue des le debut du neolithique (vers 9000 av. J.-C.) au Levant, en Iran du Sud-Ouest et en Iraq du Nord de façon presque simultanee, a l'epoque ou s'installerent les premiers etablissements sedentaires. Par la suite, l'architecture mesopotamienne est indissociable de ce materiau peu couteux fait de terre, de paille et d'eau. Les architectes et les macons mesopotamiens firent preuve d'une tres grande inventivite et d'une etonnante maitrise technique pour mener a bien l'edification de batiments gigantesques comme les ziggurats, necessitant parfois le maconnage de plusieurs millions de briques. Cet ouvrage propose d'abord une synthese des connaissances actuelles sur le materiau comme sur les differentes manieres de le mettre en ¦uvre, revelees par les fouilles archeologiques. Il presente egalement certains aspects religieux ou economiques du sujet tels que les pratiques rituelles liées a la construction ou l'organisation du travail. Une deuxieme partie decrit les grandes etapes de l'architecture mesopotamienne et permet de distinguer les periodes charnieres ou l'inventivite des hommes rendit possibles de grands progrès. C'est, avec l'emergence des premiers batiments publics au Ve millenaire, la confection de briques moulees aux modules standardises et d'appareils complexes, ou, avec les premières villes sumeriennes, la creation de briques particulieres et d'appareils specifiques, retenus pour leur plus grande rentabilite. C'est aussi, avec le developpement des empires assyrien et babylonien, l'elaboration des decors architecturaux a briques emaillees qui ornaient les murs des grandes capitales : Nimrud, Babylone, SuseŠ L'ouvrage presente ainsi une analyse des donnees archeologiques a la lumiere de l'evolution sociale de la Mesopotamie qui vit naitre les premiers villages et les premieres villes, les premieres ecritures et les premiers Etats. L'auteur, docteur en archeologie orientale de l'Université de Paris I, a collabore aux recherches de plusieurs equipes du CNRS et participe aux travaux de differents chantiers de fouilles francais au Proche-Orient, notamment a Khirokitia (Chypre), Larsa (Iraq) et Tell Mohammed Diyab (Syrie). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:52:58 -0500 From: "Richard S. Ellis" Subject: ane Re: adad-guppi At 06:46 PM 3/9/99 -0600, Tobin Cataldo wrote: > > > to all, > > I need to find some information on the Herodtean Nitocris, and >Adad-guppi, mother of Nabonidus. I have look over 'The Reign of >Nabonidus, King of Babylon 556-539 B.C.' by Paul-Alain Beaulieu. If >anybody has any suggestions as to where I might find more information, on >these two names, whether they are or are not the same person, I would >appreciate it. Thanks > tobin Cataldo What I have on Adda-guppi: Dhorme, Edouard P. 1947 La mère de Nabonide. Revue d'Assyriologie 41: 1-21. Gadd, C. J. 1958 The Harran inscriptions of Nabonidus. Anatolian Studies 8: 35-92. Weisberg, David B. 1974 Royal women of the Neo-Babylonian period. In Garelli, Paul, ed., Le palais et la royauté. RAI, 19, pp. 447-54. Paris: Paul Geuthner. Longman, Tremper III 1991 Fictional Akkadian Autobiography: A Generic and Comparative Study. Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns. Dick Ellis 40 00' 24" N 75 17' 09" W ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:09:05 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: RE: ane dream interpretation, ctd. Dear Liz, I agree with you, although Jeremiah would probably have thought differently. The necessity to reinterpret is born when prophecies are not fulfilled. When Jeremiah spoke of seventy years he thought of seventy years and that is how his prophecy seems to have been interpreted in the beginning of Ezra. Later on it became apparent that the restoration described in Ezra was not the (only?) one alluded to by Jeremiah so it was reapplied. Victor On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > Victor, > This is interesting about Daniel interpreting Jeremiah's word. This must be > the beginning of the notion of pesher. Daniel is saying that Jeremiah > didn't really know the full import of his message, only Daniel knows. He is > also saying that the message revealed to Jeremiah was not intended for > Jeremiah's audience, but for Daniel's. I don't think it is so much > distancing the divine word from the audience as distancing it from the > speaker. That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing that the new one > is the one intended all along. > Liz > This is off Michael's topic, I realize. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > > Behalf Of avigdor horovitz > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 9:04 AM > > To: Michael Fox > > Cc: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > > Subject: Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. > > > > > > Dear Michael, > > If you're looking for some sort of parallel to Daniel, I think his closest > > counterpart is the Moreh Hazzedeq from Peher Habakkuk who is empowered to > > interpret scripture. Teh book of Habakuk is a divine revelation, and the > > Moreh Hazzedeq is the one qualified to interpret it, not out of any > > particular intelligence or literary abiltiy but because he too has a > > prophetic ability. So Daniel interprets the prophetic words of Jeremiah > > bacause of a revelation. There is a process of distancing the divine word > > from the audience and a chain of interpretation develops. God may reveal > > his message to an individual in a dream which needs no interpretation. He > > can also make his word known in a symbolic dream which does requre > > interpretation. Joseph is a qualified interpreted because of his divine > > spirit which both he and Pharoah acknowledge. Daniel is one step further > > removed because his interpretation of prophetic word written in scripture > > is made possible by the revelation of an angel. > > Victor > > > > On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Michael Fox wrote: > > > > > Thanks to those who answered my query. > > > Since it led to some discussion, I'll continue it here. > > > I was not asking about the divinely sent dreams, which are miriad, but > > > about divinely interpreted ones, ie in which a god decodes his own > > > symbolic message. > > > > > > Victor Horowitz pointed out one such case: the dream of Gudea, which > > > his monther the goddess Nanshe interprets. Still, Nanshe is acting as > > > a priestess rather than a goddess, ie she is decoding a symbolic > > > message sent from a higher sphere and *she* is the decoder, using her > > > own wisdom, rather than simply receiving the message en-claire from > > > above.. (Perhaps she could be compared to Gabriel, but he is not > > > exercising his own wisdom). Nanshe is given the title of Sal.ensi of > > > the gods, which suggests that she is acting in a human-like role, not > > > in a divine role. > > > > > > What I am wondering about is the significance of having symbolic > > > dreams & visions interpreted by the same source that sends them, esp > > > in Daniel. It seems to me that the point is to undermine the > > > significance of human wisdom by making "wisdom" coterminous with the > > > divine communication itself. It's a bit different in prophetic visions > > > (eg Zecharia) because the prophet does not operate through wisdom to > > > start with. > > > > > > Oppenheim (221) says that "the interpreter may turn for verification > > > of proposed interpretations or, directly, for an unequivocally worded > > > message to the very source of the dream, that is, to the deity"--by > > > magic or prayer. But its not clear what cases he's referring to or > > > what kind of responses the prayer brings. . > > > > > > Michael Fox > > > > Lisbeth S. Fried > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies > New York University > 51 Washington Sq. S. > New York, NY 10012 > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu > lizfried@umich.edu > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:44:56 +0000 From: "S.J.Sherwin" Subject: ane Re: Daniel (was dream interpretation) Dear all, In Daniel chapter 9 (which is what Victor is referring to, I think), as far as the words of Jeremiah are concerned there doesn't seem to be any divine revelation involved. He is simply reading the book of Jeremiah and he understands (nothing particularly startling about that - it's plainly there in Jeremiah 25:11,12; 29:10). Where the angel comes in is a further revelation to Daniel, not an interpretation of Jeremiah. Jeremiah's initial proclamation was clear enough - even he could have understood what he was writing! Best wishes Simon Sherwin Cambridge, England ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:28:04 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane AMUQ TALK Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: Aslihan Yener Professor K. Aslihan Yener will present a lecture on March 17, 1999, 8:00 PM in Breasted Hall, The Oriental Institute 1155 East 58th Street, Chicago entitled: Between the Tigris-Euphrates Basin and the Mediterranean Sea: Excavations at Tell Kurdu, a Fifth Millennium BC Site in the Amuq Valley, Turkey. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:30:07 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane dream interpretation, ctd. Dear Avigdor, Weinfeld's Hebrew article (pp. 63-68 with English summary on p. 9*)is after your article and before my own in Be'er-Sheva 3 (1988) = Linguistic Studies in Memory of Moshe Held. All the best, Chaim Cohen On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, avigdor horovitz wrote: > dear Hayim, > Michael will of course have to decide if the information you offer is > relevant to his request, but I would add that if it is he should see > Weinfeld's article from Shnaton several years ago on speaking from behind > the curtain (me'aharey happargod) in Mesopotamia and Rabbinic literature. > This article has recently shown up in English gorab but I don't recall > where. > Victor > > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, chaim cohen wrote: > > > Dear Michael, > > I think that what you are looking for is especially the work of the > > professional $a:'ilu with respect to dream interpretation. For > > references, see CAD,$/1,111-112 (esp. meaning 1b on p. 111), where the > > bibliography includes Oppenheim, Dream-book, 221ff.; and see also > > CAD,$/3,406, meaning b (sub $uttu "dream"). Let me add that the question > > of a deity interpreting the dream which he himself reveals to the dreamer > > is of course reminiscent of Ea's making Utnapishtim see dreams and thus he > > comprehended (i$me) [as it were without Ea's interpretation] the secret of > > the gods (Gilg. XI:187; cf. Atra-hasi:s II:iii:7-10 according to the > > analysis of W. L. Moran, "Some Considerations of Form and Interpretation > > in Atra-hasi:s" LANGUAGE, LITERATURE AND HISTORY [=E. Reiner FS] (New > > Haven, 1987), 251. In other words, in this case Ea made sure that even > > though he couldn't tell Atra-hasi:s the secret of the gods directly > > (because he [Ea] was sworn to secrecy), he revealed the secret to him in a > > dream in such a way that no further interpretation was needed. > > All the best, > > Chaim Cohen > > > > On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Michael Fox wrote: > > > > > Thanks to those who answered my query. > > > Since it led to some discussion, I'll continue it here. > > > I was not asking about the divinely sent dreams, which are miriad, but > > > about divinely interpreted ones, ie in which a god decodes his own > > > symbolic message. > > > > > > Victor Horowitz pointed out one such case: the dream of Gudea, which > > > his monther the goddess Nanshe interprets. Still, Nanshe is acting as > > > a priestess rather than a goddess, ie she is decoding a symbolic > > > message sent from a higher sphere and *she* is the decoder, using her > > > own wisdom, rather than simply receiving the message en-claire from > > > above.. (Perhaps she could be compared to Gabriel, but he is not > > > exercising his own wisdom). Nanshe is given the title of Sal.ensi of > > > the gods, which suggests that she is acting in a human-like role, not > > > in a divine role. > > > > > > What I am wondering about is the significance of having symbolic > > > dreams & visions interpreted by the same source that sends them, esp > > > in Daniel. It seems to me that the point is to undermine the > > > significance of human wisdom by making "wisdom" coterminous with the > > > divine communication itself. It's a bit different in prophetic visions > > > (eg Zecharia) because the prophet does not operate through wisdom to > > > start with. > > > > > > Oppenheim (221) says that "the interpreter may turn for verification > > > of proposed interpretations or, directly, for an unequivocally worded > > > message to the very source of the dream, that is, to the deity"--by > > > magic or prayer. But its not clear what cases he's referring to or > > > what kind of responses the prayer brings. . > > > > > > Michael Fox > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:33:35 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Yarshater Visiting Fellowship in Iranian Studies - Harvard Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: Kambiz Eslami The Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard invites applications for the Ehsan Yarshater Visiting Fellowship in Iranian Studies. The Ehsan Yarshater Visiting Fellowship in Iranian Studies was established to promote research in Iranian languages, literatures, religions, history, sociology, anthropology, art, and archaeology. It is the preference of the donor that a promising scholar from Iran with the Ph.D. degree in one of the above disciplines be invited to the Harvard Center for Middle Eastern Studies, or to one of the several relevant departments, in order to utilize research facilities and become acquainted with methods of instruction and research at the University. The general purpose of the Fellowship is to encourage scholars from Iran who are several years beyond the Ph.D., but who have not yet achieved senior status in their fields. In exceptional cases, a scholar who has just received the Ph.D. or a senior scholar, whether Iranian or otherwise, or a promising writer with sufficient knowledge of English, may be named as the Fellow. A stipend of $40,000 will be paid for the academic year, 1999-2000. Please note that this may not be enough to cover all travel and living expenses and that the candidate may wish to supplement this with his or her own funds. Send inquires and applications to the Director, Center for Middle Eastern Studies, Harvard University, Coolidge Hall, 1737 Cambridge Street, Cambridge MA 02138, by April 30, 1999. Kambiz Eslami Executive Secretary, The Society for Iranian Studies c/o Princeton University Library One Washington Road Princeton, NJ 08544 Phone: 609-258-1308 Fax: 609-258-0441 URL: http://www.iranian-studies.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:22:44 -0700 From: John Tvedtnes Subject: ane Arab Miss Israel I didn't see anyone post this news, so I thought I should do it. Yesterday, a new Miss Israel was crowned. She is a young Arab woman from Haifa. I consider this to be a very good sign and hope it will positively impact Jewish-Arab relations in that part of the world. OK, so it isn't exactly ANE, but I believe it's close enough to be of interest to list members. 8-} John A. Tvedtnes Brigham Young University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:15:48 +0800 From: lnessa Subject: Re: ane Artemis and the bear One theory is that the testicles are from sacrificial bulls. Lester lness@ivy.nenu.edu.cn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:29:43 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: Re: ane Artemis and the bear lnessa wrote: > One theory is that the testicles are from sacrificial bulls. This seems me most plausible, since I can not see (even adorned with fertility atributes) in Artemis a fertility godess. In the contrary, she was reputedly a virgin, her escort had to be also. One had probably to abstain from sexuality to find her grace. Castration could on this ground probably also have belonged to cult. Similarities to the Cybele cult wouldn´t be a surprise. Banyai Michael Leonberg Banyai@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:21:06 EST From: FucciXXV@aol.com Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, lizfried@umich.edu writes: > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing that the new one > is the one intended all along. Liz, Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, it seems to be the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen (texts which always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they are found but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the essential basis of Christian exegesis of the OT. Jim Thorn Chicago, IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:00:39 -0800 From: Norm Hawkins Subject: Fwd: ane Re: Egyptian Pyramids Regarding Giza Plateau conservation, one should read the brief description of the Master Plan as provided on the Web Site of Dr. Zahi Hawass, at: Dr. Hawass has discussed this plan in more detail at several meetings with ARCE/SC [and, I am sure, elsewhere] over the last several years. It is, without a doubt, one of his highest priority concerns. Norm Hawkins Member ARCE/SC normhawkins@PlanetAll.com = nhawkins@m4.sprynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:46:07 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the NT, but to me it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, and that the original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. I'm curious when this form of interpretation originated, and why. It cannot simply be that the original prophecy didn't come true. As Victor points out, the author of Ezra 1 seems to believe the prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled as Jeremiah intended it. Liz Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY 10012 lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu lizfried@umich.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > Behalf Of FucciXXV@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:21 PM > To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > interpretation) > > > In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, > lizfried@umich.edu writes: > > > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing > that the new > one > > is the one intended all along. > > Liz, > > Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, > it seems to be > the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the > hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen (texts which > always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they > are found > but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the > essential basis > of Christian exegesis of the OT. > > Jim Thorn > Chicago, IL > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:21:17 EST From: FucciXXV@aol.com Subject: Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) In a message dated 3/10/99 5:49:21 PM Central Standard Time, lizfried@umich.edu writes: > Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the NT, but to me > it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original > speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, and that the > original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. Liz In my roundabout way, I was agreeing with you and expanding the point. It really should seem odd to us, but until your posting I don't think its "oddness" (and even gall, if that's what "chutspadik" means) ever crossed my mind with that clarity -- because it's part of an exegetical tradition I've been exposed to one way and another since childhood. Having given religion up quite a while ago, I've long found such exegesis unconvincing; but even so, it hadn't struck me until now how *peculiar* it is as well. Does this manner of exegesis show up in any other ANE cultures? Hellenic cultures? Jim Thorn Chicago, IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:55:25 -0500 (EST) From: sbudin@sas.upenn.edu (Stephanie Budin) Subject: ane Artemis and Fertility Actually, Artemis was the main fertility goddess of the ancient Greeks. She presided over rites of passage for girls, especially those that had to do with blood (menstruation, defloration, partuition, etc...), and it was to her that Greek women prayed both for pregnancy and safe delivery (at least until the spread of the cult of Asklepios in the 5th century). If I remember correcly, there is a dedicatory stele to Artemis in Macedonia which shows women dedicating their clothes to the goddess, a common practice in thanksgiving for safe delivery/healthy child. There is an interesting dichotomy in ancient Greece between sexuality and fertility. Artemis was the fertility goddess (for animals as well as human women), Aphrodite was the goddess of sex with minimal associations with maternity or fertility; Demeter took part a little in all three. The same dichotomy also occurs in the Near East. Ishtar was a goddess of sex, but she was not maternal, and she wasn't really a fertility goddess (she was associated with rain, of course, but it was the destructive power of the storm, not fertilizing rain...) So associations between Artemis and (animal) fertility are not odd at all, and I personally would argue that the bull testicles are a fertility symbol and not refering to castration. If anyone is interested, though, a fellow named Bob Simms has a web site up on the various animals sacrified to the different Greek deities. If I remember correctly, neither bulls nor their testes were offered to Artemis. I can find the address if anyone would be interested. Stephanie Budin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:19:35 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) dear Liz, This thread is getting a bit tangled so I will add a new knot. We know from some texts from Mari which I can't recall at the moment that omens had expiration dates (I think its discussed in AEM I/1). This seems not to be the case of biblical prophecies, so if one did not come true it was not assumed to be dead. Victor On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the NT, but to me > it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original > speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, and that the > original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. I'm curious when this form of > interpretation originated, and why. It cannot simply be that the original > prophecy didn't come true. As Victor points out, the author of Ezra 1 seems > to believe the prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled as Jeremiah intended it. > > Liz > > Lisbeth S. Fried > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies > New York University > 51 Washington Sq. S. > New York, NY 10012 > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu > lizfried@umich.edu > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > > Behalf Of FucciXXV@aol.com > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:21 PM > > To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > > Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > > interpretation) > > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, > > lizfried@umich.edu writes: > > > > > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > > > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing > > that the new > > one > > > is the one intended all along. > > > > Liz, > > > > Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, > > it seems to be > > the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the > > hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen (texts which > > always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they > > are found > > but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the > > essential basis > > of Christian exegesis of the OT. > > > > Jim Thorn > > Chicago, IL > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:21:06 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Dear Victor, Yes, I understand. But were the biblical prophecies which were reused always the ones that hadn't yet come true? I don't think so, as you pointed out yourself with the reference to Ezra. Does the fact that they had no expiration date mean they were always viable, even if they had already come true? Liz Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY 10012 lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu lizfried@umich.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: avigdor horovitz [mailto:victor@bgumail.bgu.ac.il] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 10:20 PM > To: Liz Fried > Cc: FucciXXV@aol.com; ane@oi.uchicago.edu > Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > interpretation) > > > dear Liz, > This thread is getting a bit tangled so I will add a new knot. We know > from some texts from Mari which I can't recall at the moment that omens > had expiration dates (I think its discussed in AEM I/1). This seems not to > be the case of biblical prophecies, so if one did not come true it was not > assumed to be dead. > Victor > > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > > > Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the > NT, but to me > > it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original > > speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, > and that the > > original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. I'm curious when > this form of > > interpretation originated, and why. It cannot simply be that > the original > > prophecy didn't come true. As Victor points out, the author of > Ezra 1 seems > > to believe the prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled as Jeremiah > intended it. > > > > Liz > > > > Lisbeth S. Fried > > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies > > New York University > > 51 Washington Sq. S. > > New York, NY 10012 > > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu > > lizfried@umich.edu > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > > > Behalf Of FucciXXV@aol.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:21 PM > > > To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > > > Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > > > interpretation) > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, > > > lizfried@umich.edu writes: > > > > > > > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > > > > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing > > > that the new > > > one > > > > is the one intended all along. > > > > > > Liz, > > > > > > Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, > > > it seems to be > > > the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the > > > hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen > (texts which > > > always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they > > > are found > > > but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the > > > essential basis > > > of Christian exegesis of the OT. > > > > > > Jim Thorn > > > Chicago, IL > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:58:37 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Dear Liz, I doubt that reusing prophecy was limited to ones not yet fulfilled. But one would have to check out everything, especially books like deutero-Zechariah which reuses prophecies wholesale, reapplying prophetic words to new situations. Question is when did the thing get sta rted? Remember the Deuteronomic law of prophecy which says that a prophecy which does not come (technical term) is one which God did not speak. That attitude invites the reinterpretation and reuse of prophecies. Suppose you have a prophecy which your sure is true but doesn't seem to have been fulfilled (cf. Isaiah 7). Will you abandon it, say it's a dead lettur, caduc? Or will you say its time has not yet come. How these attitudes towards divine word developed I don't know but it would be interesting in finding out. Victor On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > Dear Victor, > Yes, I understand. But were the biblical prophecies which were reused > always the ones that hadn't yet come true? I don't think so, as you pointed > out yourself with the reference to Ezra. > Does the fact that they had no expiration date mean they were always viable, > even if they had already come true? > Liz > > Lisbeth S. Fried > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies > New York University > 51 Washington Sq. S. > New York, NY 10012 > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu > lizfried@umich.edu > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: avigdor horovitz [mailto:victor@bgumail.bgu.ac.il] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 10:20 PM > > To: Liz Fried > > Cc: FucciXXV@aol.com; ane@oi.uchicago.edu > > Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > > interpretation) > > > > > > dear Liz, > > This thread is getting a bit tangled so I will add a new knot. We know > > from some texts from Mari which I can't recall at the moment that omens > > had expiration dates (I think its discussed in AEM I/1). This seems not to > > be the case of biblical prophecies, so if one did not come true it was not > > assumed to be dead. > > Victor > > > > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > > > > > Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the > > NT, but to me > > > it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original > > > speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, > > and that the > > > original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. I'm curious when > > this form of > > > interpretation originated, and why. It cannot simply be that > > the original > > > prophecy didn't come true. As Victor points out, the author of > > Ezra 1 seems > > > to believe the prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled as Jeremiah > > intended it. > > > > > > Liz > > > > > > Lisbeth S. Fried > > > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies > > > New York University > > > 51 Washington Sq. S. > > > New York, NY 10012 > > > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu > > > lizfried@umich.edu > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On > > > > Behalf Of FucciXXV@aol.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:21 PM > > > > To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu > > > > Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream > > > > interpretation) > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, > > > > lizfried@umich.edu writes: > > > > > > > > > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the > > > > > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing > > > > that the new > > > > one > > > > > is the one intended all along. > > > > > > > > Liz, > > > > > > > > Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, > > > > it seems to be > > > > the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the > > > > hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen > > (texts which > > > > always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they > > > > are found > > > > but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the > > > > essential basis > > > > of Christian exegesis of the OT. > > > > > > > > Jim Thorn > > > > Chicago, IL > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:49:53 +1300 From: "Don Mills" Subject: Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Liz Fried wrote, "were the biblical prophecies which were reused always the ones that hadn't yet come true?" As Jim Thorn noted, this phenomenon (prophecy recycling) is one of the bases of Christian exegesis of the "Old Testament". And the whole thing is complicated by a strong tendency (found also in the Dead Sea Scrolls) to take originally non-prophetic texts and interpret them as prophecies ("prophecy" in the sense of "fore-telling, not forth-telling"). Matthew's gospel is full of this -- for example, the past tense, historical statement, "Out of Egypt I have called my son" (Psalms somewhere? I'm away from home), reapplied to his story of the Holy Family's flight to Egypt and back (Matthew 2:15). One thing that's intrigued me for a long time, though: the Isaiah 7:10-17 (or -25) "Immanuel" prophecy which is claimed for Jesus (Matthew 1:23). Was the child whom Isaiah described actually born, back in the days of Ahaz, and were Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel dispossessed of their thrones during his infancy? Is there enough chronological information to decide whether Isaiah's prophecy might have come true in its original sense, at least as to the imminence of Ahaz' delivery? Regards Don Mills Christchurch (temporarily) New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:40:47 -0600 (CST) From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: Re: ane: nitocris and adad-guppi To the list from Dick Ellis I would add: F. D'Agostino, Nabonedo, Adda Guppi, il Deserto e il Dio Luna, Pisa, Giardini, 1994 (pp. 121-123 on Adda-Guppi and Nitokris) R.H. Sack, Images of Nebuchadnezzar. The Emergence of a Legend, Selingsgrove 1991 (esp. pp. 76-80; the best on the flow of Greek and Hebrew traditions on Nebuchadnezzar, Sammuramat and Nitokris) Best regards, Giuseppe Del Monte At 18.46 09/03/99 -0600, Tobin Cataldo wrote: > > > to all, > > I need to find some information on the Herodtean Nitocris, and >Adad-guppi, mother of Nabonidus. I have look over 'The Reign of >Nabonidus, King of Babylon 556-539 B.C.' by Paul-Alain Beaulieu. If >anybody has any suggestions as to where I might find more information, on >these two names, whether they are or are not the same person, I would >appreciate it. Thanks > tobin Cataldo > > - -------------- Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:15:43 -0600 From: "Charles David Isbell" Subject: Re: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) Dear Liz, Avigdor, Victor et al: Allow me to add a few more ingredients to the gumbo now bubbling over the issue of the re-use of prophetic messages. FIRST, we should remember that even the classical prophets certainly spoke far more messages than those which have come down to us in the Bible. The LXX version of Jeremiah should cinch this, and no one would suppose that a Malachi (whether a real name or not) preached only six sermons throughout his career. So we must ask about the factor(s) involved in the sifting through the messages of a master prophet to make some sort of determination about which of his utterances merit repetition, or even recasting. We know, from Isaiah and from Elisha, about schools of prophets probably something like student prophets who grouped around the master during his lifetime and who would have been invested in trying to preserve and hand down into the future the key sayings that had been taught by their master teacher. It seems likely that certain criteria would have been involved in the choice of which messages warranted repetition and transmission and which oens ultimately graduated into written form. For example, if the community discovered that the hearing of a certain message or story helped them to define God, define themselves, or define the relationship between God and themselves, I believe the impetus was there to begin the steps that would finally lead the entire community to stamp some things as "in" while others would simply fail to be repeated and thus would gradually come to be forgotten and lost. SECOND, the whole idea of a corpus of stories and messages that have lasting or even timeless value lends itself to the concomitant belief that such value would bear in important ways on the present in which an interpreting community was living. The whole idea of the exodus is the prime example here. Passages like Deut 26 and Josh 24 alert us to the fact that ancient Israel was well aware that not all of her citizens in present time had been delivered from Egypt. The retelling of the story (and notice the shift of the pronouns from the third person to the first person in Deut 26:5-9) symbolically includes all Israelites in the current age in the timeless and foundational story of Israel's origins. In similar fashion, a native of Viet Nam who becomes an American citizen will learn and "participate" in the story of the American Revolutionary War, etc.; even though his/her ancestors were far away from England or America at the time, it still becomes "his" or "her" personal story too. Powerful and emotional messages from certified prophets would contain within themselves the demand for their repetition to people struggling to define themselves and their God. But as the era of these repetitions moved farther away from the original setting in which the message had been preached, it is fair to assume that although congregants were hearing what was to them a first time and powerful message, the specific purpose and setting in which it had originally been issued would have receded into the background. Their own current situations and problems would, of course, dominate. To us, it seems apparent that a new twist has been added to the interpretation, a new use is found for an old story. But to them, it must have been an obvious way to interpret the words of the great prophets for "today". Did anyone in these situations consciously realize that a "new" interpretation was involved? Look at the use made of the Exodus motif in Hosea 11. Did the prophet think he was recasting the exodus motif for N Israel? I think he was simply thundering forth what was to him an obvious verity in the situation of his hearers. THIRD, I think we need to recall that a specific method of interpretation came into use sometime early in the first millennium of this era, a method called "haraz," which involved the stringing together [as one strings pearls] of verses of Scripture based on the common occurrence of one single word or just a few words or thoughts. The New Testament is a good example o f this method, and one may compare Matthew 2:15 as an example of the way in which an entire motif (exodus) can be subsumed under a small fraction of its full meaning in order to make a point in a new situation. What happens here in the gospel is far different from what Hosea does in his context. Perhaps a simpler example would be Isaiah 40:3, where the te'amim [I understand that these were added in written texts only much later, but I think the Hebrew text is clear enough as it stands.] indicate clearly that the ROAD to be prepared was in the desert. By contrast, John 1:23 places JOHN in the desert because such a placement is integral to the argument that he wishes to make. If the gospel writer used the LXX, as he most surely did, his application of this verse to his own purposes must have seemed clear and logical to him. Here and throughout the NT, there is no obligation to exegete the original Sitz im Leben of any passage that is co-opted in order to make a christological argument. Of course, Talmudic reasoning offers even more examples of this use of biblical core texts. Here too, the reason appears to be simple. It was the current situation of the interpreter that dominated his concerns, rather than a commitment to historical or exegetical rigor. Akiva, for example, was even accused of making theological arguments out of the flourishes added to individual Hebrew letters by the scribes in copying the Torah. But his arguments always hammer at what is for him a current point, even though they are often less than useful to the modern exegete. In short, I don't think we must assume that DSS, NT, Talmudic, Midrashic authors, etc. perceived that they were veering away from THE meaning of a prophetic message and carving out a NEW or different or contradictory interpretation. I think they were simply creatures of their own time who appropriated texts to their personal theological and didactic needs. This helps me to explain why all sorts of texts can be used comfortably in more than one later period [and remember that the end of the world has been THE meaning of several "prophecies" roughly every 125 years since Qumran!]--predictions that did or did not come "true"; stories that had time and place-specific settings; verses that had what seem to us altogether different functions in the text as we read it. Sorry for the length. - -----Original Message----- From: avigdor horovitz To: Liz Fried Cc: FucciXXV@aol.com ; ane@oi.uchicago.edu Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 1:11 AM Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) >Dear Liz, >I doubt that reusing prophecy was limited to ones not yet fulfilled. But >one would have to check out everything, especially books like >deutero-Zechariah which reuses prophecies wholesale, reapplying prophetic >words to new situations. Question is when did the thing get sta rted? >Remember the Deuteronomic law of prophecy which says that a prophecy which >does not come (technical term) is one which God did not speak. That >attitude invites the reinterpretation and reuse of prophecies. Suppose you >have a prophecy which your sure is true but doesn't seem to have been >fulfilled (cf. Isaiah 7). Will you abandon it, say it's a dead lettur, >caduc? Or will you say its time has not yet come. How these attitudes >towards divine word developed I don't know but it would be interesting in >finding out. >Victor > >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: > >> Dear Victor, >> Yes, I understand. But were the biblical prophecies which were reused >> always the ones that hadn't yet come true? I don't think so, as you pointed >> out yourself with the reference to Ezra. >> Does the fact that they had no expiration date mean they were always viable, >> even if they had already come true? >> Liz >> >> Lisbeth S. Fried >> Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies >> New York University >> 51 Washington Sq. S. >> New York, NY 10012 >> lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu >> lizfried@umich.edu >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: avigdor horovitz [mailto:victor@bgumail.bgu.ac.il] >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 10:20 PM >> > To: Liz Fried >> > Cc: FucciXXV@aol.com; ane@oi.uchicago.edu >> > Subject: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream >> > interpretation) >> > >> > >> > dear Liz, >> > This thread is getting a bit tangled so I will add a new knot. We know >> > from some texts from Mari which I can't recall at the moment that omens >> > had expiration dates (I think its discussed in AEM I/1). This seems not to >> > be the case of biblical prophecies, so if one did not come true it was not >> > assumed to be dead. >> > Victor >> > >> > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Liz Fried wrote: >> > >> > > Yes. I realize that this is what is done at Qumran and in the >> > NT, but to me >> > > it is odd. It is chutspadik (sp?). It seems to assume that the original >> > > speaker of the verses didn't know what he was talking about, >> > and that the >> > > original audience didn't deserve the prophecy. I'm curious when >> > this form of >> > > interpretation originated, and why. It cannot simply be that >> > the original >> > > prophecy didn't come true. As Victor points out, the author of >> > Ezra 1 seems >> > > to believe the prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled as Jeremiah >> > intended it. >> > > >> > > Liz >> > > >> > > Lisbeth S. Fried >> > > Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies >> > > New York University >> > > 51 Washington Sq. S. >> > > New York, NY 10012 >> > > lqf9256@is3.nyu.edu >> > > lizfried@umich.edu >> > > >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On >> > > > Behalf Of FucciXXV@aol.com >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:21 PM >> > > > To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu >> > > > Subject: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream >> > > > interpretation) >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > In a message dated 3/10/99 8:22:50 AM Central Standard Time, >> > > > lizfried@umich.edu writes: >> > > > >> > > > > That is what is so odd here, I think. Distancing it from the >> > > > > original audience and bringing it to a new one, and arguing >> > > > that the new >> > > > one >> > > > > is the one intended all along. >> > > > >> > > > Liz, >> > > > >> > > > Is this really "odd," in the sense of unusual? As you mention, >> > > > it seems to be >> > > > the understanding behind the whole notion of "pesher." It's also the >> > > > hermeneutic basis of all the "messianic" texts I've ever seen >> > (texts which >> > > > always have an immediate meaning within the OT book in which they >> > > > are found >> > > > but a second "messianic" meaning "hidden" within them) and the >> > > > essential basis >> > > > of Christian exegesis of the OT. >> > > > >> > > > Jim Thorn >> > > > Chicago, IL >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:27:59 +0100 From: Banyai@t-online.de (Banyai) Subject: Re: RE: ane Hidden Meaning for Later Audience (was dream interpretation) avigdor horovitz wrote: > Suppose you > have a prophecy which your sure is true but doesn't seem to have been > fulfilled (cf. Isaiah 7). Will you abandon it, say it's a dead lettur, > caduc? Or will you say its time has not yet come. How these attitudes > towards divine word developed I don't know but it would be interesting in > finding out. I can imagine so long people had prophets to give fresh answers to everyday politics, there was no need to recicle any older ones. Recicling would have rendered a whole branch of priests jobless. Maybe a situation like the babylonian exile, with more or less no official "Kultausübung" have led to prophecy recicling. One can doubt the historicity of Daniel, or at least the prophecies attributed to him (most of them are of Maccabean age). Best regards, Banyai Michael Leonberg Banyai@t-online.de ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1999 #70 *************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html