From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1999 #312 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Sunday, November 7 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 312 Re: ane crucifixion Re: ane michugas Re: ane michugas Re: ane michugas Re: ane crucifixion Re: ane crucifixion Re: ane michugas ane transliteration RE: ane michugas ane: address request Re: ane transliteration RE: ane transliteration (was:michugas) ane humans, demons, and ardat-lili RE: ane michugas ane Use of GIS Technology in Essex County England Re: ane transliteration ane Re: transliteration Re: ane transliteration Re: ane transliteration (was:michugas) Re: ane transliteration Re: ane michugas Re: ane michugas Re: ane transliteration Re: ane Re: transliteration ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:54:18 +1300 From: "Don Mills" Subject: Re: ane crucifixion George Athas wrote, « The Assyrians used to impale some of their captured enemies on stakes. I don't know whether this counts as a type of 'crucifixion,' but it's certainly an antecedent form of punishment. Scenes of this type of punishment are depicted on the Bronze Gates from Balawat. » According to my WordWeb dictionary (every word processor should have one!), "cross" means (first definition), "A wooden structure consisting of an upright post with a transverse piece". But this is not necessarily the primary meaning of the Latin word "crux", or at least, not before the Christian period: "In general, a tree, frame, or other wooden instruments of execution, on which criminals were impaled or hanged" (Lewis & Short via Perseus project). Greek STAUROS, similarly (according to Liddell-Scott-Jones, via ditto), primarily means "upright pale or stake, {staurous ektos elasse diamperes entha kai entha puknous kai thameas} Hom. Od. 14.11, cf. Hom. Il. 24.453, Thuc. 4.90, Xen. Anab. 5.2.21; of piles driven in to serve as a foundation, Hdt. 5.16, Thuc. 7.25"; a secondary meaning is also given, "pale for impaling a corpse, Plu.Art.17". Besides STAUROS, NT authors (Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) also use the word "xylon", for which Liddell-Scott-Jones give a variety of meanings: "wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. ...; piece of wood, log, beam, post; ... peg or lever; ... perch ...: hence anything made of wood, as, cudgel, club; ... an instrument of punishment, ... wooden collar, put on the neck of the prisoner ... ; or, stocks, in which the feet were confined ... gallows ...: prov., {ex axiou tou xulou kan apanxasthai}, i.e. if one must be hanged, at least let it be on a noble tree ... stake on which criminals were impaled ... of live wood, tree ..." There is more, but nowhere is there described the "upright post *with a transverse piece*" that we think of when we say "crucified". George tells us that the gates of Balawat depicted impalement on stakes. My query to the list is: Is there any ancient (pre-Christian, or more specifically, pre-Constantinian) description or portrayal of execution on the XYLON / STAUROS / CRUX that makes it clear that an "upright post with a transverse piece" was the instrument used? Regards, Don Mills Wellington, New Zealand ==================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:12:11 -0600 From: "Charles David Isbell" Subject: Re: ane michugas This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01BF2815.7B4F92E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lewis: I'm batting 50%. You are correct about my hasty mistransliteration of = Shigga'on. Thanks for the correction. =20 But the participial form meshugga' is surely Pu'al. Think of the = analogous form medubbar. The hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem = (qamatz hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)]. Wouldn't it be nice = if we could all write with script and points on this meshuggena' rascal = we call e-mail! =20 Charles From: Lewis Reich
Lewis:
 
I'm batting 50%.  You are correct about my hasty = mistransliteration=20 of Shigga'on.  Thanks for the correction.  =
 
But the participial form meshugga'  is surely = Pu'al.  Think of the analogous form medubbar.  = The=20 hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem (qamatz=20 hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)].  Wouldn't it be nice = if we=20 could all write with script and points on this = meshuggena'=20 rascal we call e-mail!    

Charles
From: Lewis Reich <lbr@sprynet.com

On 5 Nov 99, at 3:59, Charles David Isbell wrote: = Interesting=20 too that the nominal function borrowed into Yiddish is the Pu'al=20 substantive adjective, which attests, "a crazed one," 

Is = that=20 pu'al. or hof'al?  I'm inclined to think that me'shugah is=20 hof'al; wouldn't the the pu'al be shu'gah?
 
Lewis=20 Reich

- ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01BF2815.7B4F92E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 07:08:38 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane michugas Lewis Reich wrote: > > On 5 Nov 99, at 6:51, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > > Lewis Reich wrote: > > > > Most of the > > > spellings of our word don't really convey the pronunciation > > > accurately; it's m'shoo-ga-as. > > > > Not in Yiddish or English, it isn't. > > In my Yiddish-speaking parents' house it certainly was, . The > double vowel may have been a bit elided but it was quite present. > (A spelling of "michugas" is a clear invitations to incomprehensible > mispronunciations like "mitch-uh-gas".) > > As far as English goes, well the word is still at least Yiddish, if not > Hebrew, even if used by English-speakers. An analogy: the fact > that many English speakers mispronounce (and misspell) the > French "chaise longue" as "chaise lounge" does not seem to me to > mean that one can assert that "chaise longue" is pronounced > "chaise lounge" in English. It's still French, and still ought to be > pronounced that way. Or so it seems to me. Prescriptive grammar has no place on ANE List. There is an English word, chaise lounge, which was borrowed from French _chaise longue_ and reshaped by analogy. In New York Yiddish (and English), mishegoss has three syllables. (There is indeed no warrant for spelling it with ch!) - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 07:18:53 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane michugas Charles David Isbell wrote: > > Lewis: >   > I'm batting 50%.  You are correct about my hasty mistransliteration of > Shigga'on.  Thanks for the correction.  >   > But the participial form meshugga'  is surely Pu'al.  Think of the > analogous form medubbar.  The hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem > (qamatz hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)].  Wouldn't it be nice > if we could all write with script and points on this meshuggena' > rascal we call e-mail!     We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken for anything else?) - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:21:24 +0200 From: "Rex H. McTyeire" Subject: Re: ane crucifixion Don Mills asked, Saturday, November 06, 1999 10:54 >Is there any ancient (pre-Christian, or more specifically, > pre-Constantinian) description or portrayal of execution on the XYLON / > STAUROS / CRUX that makes it clear that an "upright post with a transverse > piece" was the instrument used? It is the "making it clear" that is the difficult part. Herodotus uses the term (as translated by Rawlinson to "cross"..don't have the original) precisely twice in a context applicable to your inquiry: Both references seem to be oriented to displaying the already deceased, rather than actually killing him. The first: "For, if we except the Syracusans, there has never been one of the Greek tyrants who was to be compared with Polycrates for magnificence. Oroetes, however, slew him in a mode which is not fit to be described, and then hung his dead body upon a cross." The second is better, and seems to draw a distinct contrast between cross and pole for similar purposes. I also find the "nailed to" interesting. (As the Scythians gather regional Kings to discuss a response to the approach of Darius) Herodotus reflects on area customs: "The Tauri have the following customs. They offer in sacrifice to the Virgin all shipwrecked persons, and all Greeks compelled to put into their ports by stress of weather. The mode of sacrifice is this. After the preparatory ceremonies, they strike the victim on the head with a club. Then, according to some accounts, they hurl the trunk from the precipice whereon the temple stands, and nail the head to a cross. Others grant that the head is treated in this way, but deny that the body is thrown down the cliff- on the contrary, they say, it is buried. The goddess to whom these sacrifices are offered the Tauri themselves declare to be Iphigenia the daughter of Agamemnon. When they take prisoners in war they treat them in the following way. The man who has taken a captive cuts off his head, and carrying it to his home, fixes it upon a tall pole, which he elevates above his house, most commonly over the chimney." (BTW..I agree on wordweb, and I owe you mail..patience.) La Revedere; Rex H. McTyeire Bucharest, Romania ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 10:52:52 -0500 From: Tim -Shemayah- Phillips Subject: Re: ane crucifixion George and all, Not having the source information access some of you must have, I would like to know a few more details if any would care to reply. What varieties of execution/torture can be included in the general term "crucifixion"? Are we speaking of impaling, suspending on posts with and without cross-beams, etc.? I remember seeing a clay figure from Halicarnassos featuring a man hanging by his wrists from the top of a post. It also seems I have read a description in perhaps the Mishna about hanging criminals in a very similar way as I could interpret it. I'm sorry but I do not remember where it reads (if it actually was the Mishna). I have seen the reliefs or similar that George mentions, and I have seen the Roman examples (without real references to contemporary sources) such as T-configured and cross style. I will check out Hengel (if I can afford it ;-), but how about a preview? Thanks, Tim Phillips George Athas wrote: > The Assyrians used to impale some of their captured enemies on stakes. I don't know > whether this counts as a type of 'crucifixion,' but it's certainly an antecedent form of > punishment. Scenes of this type of punishment are depicted on the Bronze Gates from > Balawat. > > Regards. > George Athas > Dept of Semitic Studies, > University of Sydney > ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > Tel Dan Inscription Website > http://members.xoom.com/gathas/teldan.htm > ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > < gathas@ mail.usyd.edu.au > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:05:33 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: Re: ane michugas meshuga`, the base of meshugas is definitely pu`al participle. shiga`on exists in BH, as describing in one place the chariot driving of Jehu, and as Jonathan Safran has pointed out, his modern Israeli heirs. shigayon also exists as a musical (?) term in Psalms and in plural Habakik (galizianer yiddish pronounciation!) 3:1. Victor On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Lewis Reich wrote: > On 5 Nov 99, at 3:59, Charles David Isbell wrote: > > > Interesting too that the nominal function borrowed into Yiddish is the > > Pu'al substantive adjective, which attests, "a crazed one," > > Is that pu'al. or hof'al? I'm inclined to think that me'shugah is hof'al; > wouldn't the the pu'al be shu'gah? > > > Hebrew does have the noun Shiggayon to mean "craziness." > > Wouldn't that noun be shi'ga'ohn [shin, gimel, ayin, (cholam) nun] > rather than [shin gimel yod (cholam) nun]? > > Lewis Reich > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:09:55 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: ane transliteration dear Peter, several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email transliteration of Hebrew which was systematic and accurate but which most people on ane have not adopted and which I dont remember, but perhaps you can find it in the archive. In all do respect to myself, I'd rather not serve as a precedent on this thing for I often "play it by ear" or use things I've seen others do. het is often given as x, and sadi as c. Victor On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > Charles David Isbell wrote: > > > > Lewis: > >   > > I'm batting 50%.  You are correct about my hasty mistransliteration of > > Shigga'on.  Thanks for the correction.  > >   > > But the participial form meshugga'  is surely Pu'al.  Think of the > > analogous form medubbar.  The hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem > > (qamatz hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)].  Wouldn't it be nice > > if we could all write with script and points on this meshuggena' > > rascal we call e-mail!     > > We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in > Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin > doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken > for anything else?) > -- > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:38:56 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane michugas > From: Peter T. Daniels > > > In New York Yiddish (and English), mishegoss has three syllables. (There > is indeed no warrant for spelling it with ch!) That's how we spell it, here in Michigan. Michigas in Michigan > -- > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:58:06 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: ane: address request Does anyone have the address of Janet H. Johnson? I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Liz Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY 10012 lizfried@umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:43:05 -0600 (CST) From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: Re: ane transliteration I also tend to type $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. I would avoid, however, the "accent" for ayin, while many national keyboards (included the Italian one) lack it. I use to type c instead (graphic imitation of the scientific transliteration symbol). Perhaps Chayim Cohen could repost his system to the list. Giuseppe Del Monte At 18.09 06/11/99 +0200, you wrote: >dear Peter, >several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email >transliteration of Hebrew which was systematic and accurate but >which most people on ane have not adopted and which I dont remember, but >perhaps you can find it in the archive. In all do respect to myself, I'd >rather not serve as a precedent on this thing for I often "play it by >ear" or use things I've seen others do. het is often given as x, and sadi >as c. >Victor > >On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >> Charles David Isbell wrote: >> > >> > Lewis: >> >   >> > I'm batting 50%.  You are correct about my hasty mistransliteration of >> > Shigga'on.  Thanks for the correction.  >> >   >> > But the participial form meshugga'  is surely Pu'al.  Think of the >> > analogous form medubbar.  The hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem >> > (qamatz hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)].  Wouldn't it be nice >> > if we could all write with script and points on this meshuggena' >> > rascal we call e-mail!     >> >> We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in >> Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin >> doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken >> for anything else?) >> -- >> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net >> > > - -------------- Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:13:49 +0100 From: Aayko Eyma Subject: RE: ane transliteration (was:michugas) >We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in >Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin >doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken >for anything else?) ***I was under the impression that there was a standard email set, the Michigan- Claremont encoding scheme, as adopted by online journals around? See: http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/TC-translit.html kind regards, Aayko Eyma ) aleph x heth + tet y yod s samekh ( ayin c tsade & sin $ shin # sin/shin t taw K final kaph M final mem N final nun P final pe C final tsade ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 17:19:54 -0500 From: "Richard Whitekettle " Subject: ane humans, demons, and ardat-lili In Foster's Before the Muses there is an incantation against the demon Ardat-lili (2nd edition, volume 2, pages 855-857) which describes the demon as being a young man who (among other things) "took no wife, raised no child" or as a girl who (among other things), "was never impregnated...who produced no son" I'm wondering if, 1. This is a male human being or a female human being who never reproduced and after death became a demon. or, 2. This is a demon who, being a sexually aggressive demon, is described in reproductively frustrated human terms. If it is no. 2, can one assume that reproductively frustrated post-mortem humans are in turmoil, and that this turmoil is what the demon's behavior is being associated with? Is there any evidence for the post-mortem turmoil of reproductively frustrated human beings? Thanks Richard Whitekettle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: dr-e-m-winocur@webtv.net (Dr. Emanuel M. Winocur) Subject: RE: ane michugas - --WebTV-Mail-8260-2964 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Any histerical relation between Michigan and Michigas? =BF(=9B)=B0(=8B)=BF =95=95=3D=3D=3D=95=95 - --WebTV-Mail-8260-2964 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-102-2.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.99) by storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailsorter-102-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id BAC905DF; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:21:17 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: dr-e-m-winocur@webtv.net Received: from asmar.uchicago.edu (asmar.uchicago.edu [128.135.244.37]) by mailsorter-102-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8625AF for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from md194@localhost) by asmar.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26109 for ane-outgoing; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:38:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from vivalasvegas.rs.itd.umich.edu (vivalasvegas.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.35]) by asmar.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26105 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:38:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from lizfried.umich.edu (pm460-17.dialip.mich.net [207.75.176.75]) by vivalasvegas.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.9.1/3.1r) with SMTP id NAA07736; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:38:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Liz Fried" To: "Peter T. Daniels" , Subject: RE: ane michugas Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:38:56 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bf2886$2f08d560$74b34bcf@lizfried.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <38240C35.6D91@worldnet.att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Liz Fried" > From: Peter T. Daniels > > > In New York Yiddish (and English), mishegoss has three syllables. (There > is indeed no warrant for spelling it with ch!) That's how we spell it, here in Michigan. Michigas in Michigan > -- > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > - --WebTV-Mail-8260-2964-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:42:35 -0600 From: "Richard Klapper" Subject: ane Use of GIS Technology in Essex County England This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2875.EEAD9060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I apologize for the cross posting but I came across an interesting web = article for those who are interested in how computer technology is being = used in various areas of field work. This particular article discusses = Geographic Information Systems (GIS) technology and its use at Essex = England in their field survey project. The site is: = http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/1099/essex.html Richard Klapper=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2875.EEAD9060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I apologize for the cross posting but I came across = an=20 interesting web article for those who are interested in how computer = technology=20 is being used in various areas of field work. This particular article = discusses=20 Geographic Information Systems (GIS) technology and its use at Essex = England in=20 their field survey project. The site is:  http://www.esri= .com/news/arcuser/1099/essex.html
 
Richard Klapper 
- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2875.EEAD9060-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:58:35 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane transliteration Dear Avigdor and Peter, The system suggested by Michael Fox is as follows (it is the one I use): 'bgdhwzx(chet)T(tet)yklmns`pc(tzade)qr$(shin)&(sin)t long vowel (when necessary): a: i: etc. circumflex after vowel a^ u^ etc. All the best, Chaim Cohen On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, avigdor horovitz wrote: > dear Peter, > several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email > transliteration of Hebrew which was systematic and accurate but > which most people on ane have not adopted and which I dont remember, but > perhaps you can find it in the archive. In all do respect to myself, I'd > rather not serve as a precedent on this thing for I often "play it by > ear" or use things I've seen others do. het is often given as x, and sadi > as c. > Victor > > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > > Charles David Isbell wrote: > > > > > > Lewis: > > >   > > > I'm batting 50%.  You are correct about my hasty mistransliteration of > > > Shigga'on.  Thanks for the correction.  > > >   > > > But the participial form meshugga'  is surely Pu'al.  Think of the > > > analogous form medubbar.  The hof'al would have to be *moshgi'a [mem > > > (qamatz hatuph)-shin-gimel-ayin (patah furtive)].  Wouldn't it be nice > > > if we could all write with script and points on this meshuggena' > > > rascal we call e-mail!     > > > > We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in > > Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin > > doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken > > for anything else?) > > -- > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:16:57 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: ane Re: transliteration A huge reason not to use x for chet is that it's needed elsewhere (Arabic, Ethiopic) for "kh" (German ch). For sade, S is useful because of the parallel with T and H for the letters transliterated with underdots, though of course c is "ts" throughout Eastern Europe -- but elsewhere it's k, s, and ch, so it can be confusing. avigdor horovitz wrote: > > dear Peter, > several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email > transliteration of Hebrew which was systematic and accurate but > which most people on ane have not adopted and which I dont remember, but > perhaps you can find it in the archive. In all do respect to myself, I'd > rather not serve as a precedent on this thing for I often "play it by > ear" or use things I've seen others do. het is often given as x, and sadi > as c. > Victor > > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in > > Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin > > doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken > > for anything else?) - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:22:35 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane transliteration In the days of typewriters, 9 was used for `ayn, and occasionally 7 for 'alif (since ? was used to mark questions). for `ayin would be horribly misleading, since superscripting is not possible. Giuseppe Del Monte wrote: > > I also tend to type $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. I would > avoid, however, the "accent" for ayin, while many national keyboards > (included the Italian one) lack it. I use to type c instead (graphic > imitation of the scientific transliteration symbol). Perhaps Chayim Cohen > could repost his system to the list. - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:27:44 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane transliteration (was:michugas) I can't think of any reason at all for "transliterating" the final consonants in any special way. Using parentheses for letters is not a good idea, since enclosing forms in parentheses happens fairly frequently. It's also not reasonable to invent a scheme for Hebrew that entirely disregards the rest of Semitic. Surely where Hebrew goes, Ugaritic can't be far behind? I'm happy to say I've never seen any posting using the system below. Aayko Eyma wrote: > > >We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in > >Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin > >doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken > >for anything else?) > > ***I was under the impression that there was a standard email set, the > Michigan- Claremont encoding scheme, as adopted by online journals > around? See: > http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/TC-translit.html > > kind regards, > Aayko Eyma > > ) aleph > x heth > + tet > y yod > s samekh > ( ayin > c tsade > & sin > $ shin > # sin/shin > t taw > K final kaph > M final mem > N final nun > P final pe > C final tsade > - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:35:02 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane transliteration Surely Cha(y)im "Etymologist" Cohen must be able to accommodate Ugaritic in his "system"? How do you do the 5/6/8 extra letters? I guess a/i/u, even though it leads students to think they represent vowels, and Third S doesn't come up much, but what about the Semitic 5? AND STOP SENDING E-MAIL COPIES OF LIST POSTINGS!!! BOTH OF YOU!!! chaim cohen wrote: > > Dear Avigdor and Peter, > The system suggested by Michael Fox is as follows (it is the one I use): > 'bgdhwzx(chet)T(tet)yklmns`pc(tzade)qr$(shin)&(sin)t > > long vowel (when necessary): a: i: etc. > circumflex after vowel a^ u^ etc. > > All the best, > Chaim Cohen > > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, avigdor horovitz wrote: > > > dear Peter, > > several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:38:08 +0100 From: "chris.cleutjens" Subject: Re: ane michugas Dutch: "Meshôggê" = Crazy, nuts, foolish... in Amsterdam chris cleutjens - ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: Liz Fried Aan: Peter T. Daniels ; Verzonden: zaterdag 6 november 1999 19:38 Onderwerp: RE: ane michugas > > From: Peter T. Daniels > > > > > > In New York Yiddish (and English), mishegoss has three syllables. (There > > is indeed no warrant for spelling it with ch!) > That's how we spell it, here in Michigan. > > Michigas > in Michigan > > > -- > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 02:26:47 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: Re: ane michugas Dear Yonatan, Avigdor, Charles, Lewis and list members, I have nothing to say professionally about the Yiddish usage (even though I have heard it used countless number of times in Yiddish and have used it myself rather extensively in modern Hebrew). As regards BH $g`, a quick perusal of the evidence led me to the following provisional conclusions: 1. The root occurs 10 times in BH as follows: a) me$ugga` (pu``al participle) - DEUT. 28:34 (in a curse context referring to an abnormal state of mind as a result of what one's eyes see taking place); I SAM. 21:16 (referring quite clearly to David's feigning madness before King Achish of Gat - David intentionally changed his state of mind [v. 14 - - way$anno 'et Ta`mo (= Akk. Te:ma $unnu^ - CAD,$/1,407-408) // wayyitholel] at the sight of which Achish labels David an 'i$ mi$taggea` [v. 15] rather than the expected military hero [v. 12] and even adds "Do I lack madmen [me$ugga`im] that you have brought this one to rave [lehi$taggea`] before me"; II KINGS 9:11 (derisively referring to the conduct and speech of the prophet Elisha in a context when that prophet's ominous message is delivered by messenger at Ramot-Gilead); JER. 29:26 (in a context derisively referring thus to false prophets - the usage here is reminiscent of the Akk. term ma/uhhu^ "ecstatic" commonly used with reference to the prophets at Mari although not derisively); HOS. 9:7 (in poetic parallelism - "The prophet was discomposed ['ewil hannabi'] // the inspired man driven mad [me$ugga` 'i$ haruax]"). b) hi$tagea`/mi$tagge`a (hitpa``el infinitive and particple each occurring once) - only in the I Sam. 21:15-16 context described above. c) the substantive $igga`on "madness" (which has nothing to do with $iggayon/$igyonot in Ps. 7:1; Hab. 3:1 since the latter terms are written without the root letter ` of the root $g`) occurring 3 times: - - DEUT. 28:28 (the same curse context in which the pu``al participle form occurs in v. 34 [see above] here together with two other maladies `iwwaron "blindness" and timhon lebab "dismay" [NJPS, 318 comments "Lit. 'numbness of heart'"]; II KINGS 9:20 (fascinating context of "driving [the chariot] like a madman" obviously referring to reckless, mad driving); ZECH. 12:4 (in a context where God protects the House of Judah by striking the horses and riders of the enemy nations with the same three maladies referred to above in Deut. 28:28 - timmahon "panic, dismay", $igga`on "madness", and `iwwaron "blindness". 2. The new fourth volume of HALOT, p. 1415 correctly states as follows: "$g`: an original vb. with appropriate correspondences in the cognate languages; but deriving $g` from g`h [and I would add also from ng` - C.C.] as an archaic $af`el formation (so Waechter ZAW 83 (1971) 386f) is completely improbable." In my opinion, the most important cognate is Akk. $egu^ (as already noted by Charles and Avigdor). The main difference in usage is that the Akk. term is most often used for mad, rabid dogs and other animals and only occasionally "said of humans and gods" where it seems to mean "to become incensed, enraged" more than "to become crazy" (i.e. more "to be mad" than "to go mad") [CAD,$/2,259-260]. The real semantic connection is in fact through a comparison between Akk. kalbu segu^ "a vicious, rabid dog" as it occurs in par. 56 of the laws of Eshnunna (which otherwise is completely parallel to the law of the goring ox in Ex. 21:39 and par 251 of the Hammurapi Laws) and Mishnaic Hebrew keleb $oTe. The MH verb $Ty replaces the BH $g`. Thus BH me$uga` = MH $oTe "crazy person, one who is mentally deranged" while the Yiddish mishegas would be the equivalent of MH $eTut "craziness, irrational speech or behavior" 3. Finally, note that there is a fascinating passage in which the root $g` occurs in the Damascus Covenant 15:15 - The context refers to the requirement of intensive learning for one full year for all those who take upon themselves to enter the covenant after which they must be tested by the inspector (mbqr). The text then reads as follows: "And in accordance with his knowledge he will approach. And no one stupid or deranged ('wyl wm$wg`) should enter...". Thus the same parallelism cited above for Hos. 9:7 is the basis for this usage in the DSS. All the best, Chaim Cohen On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Jonathan D. Safren wrote: > avigdor horovitz wrote: > > > I hope this discussion is not driving any one crazy! Lewis is certainly > > right about what the Yiddish means and if anyone wants to know what the > > Hebrew means, look at the description of the meshuga DAvid referred > > to. Actually, David's behaviour would probably be best described as "mad", > > although a psychologist might offer a better clinical term. > > I have a vague recollection that Hebrew $g` is a rare shaf`el form of ng`, > > to touch. Can anyone confirm this? Chayim Cohen? How about lapatu $? I'm > > sitting here in my office, bereft of my CAD so I'm helpless. > > Victor > > The description of Jehu in 2 Kings 9 "ki be-shiga'on yinhag" -" for he drives > madly" (the first Israeli reckless driver), would seem to militate against that > idea, because $iga'on belongs to a well-known mishqal of nouns - zikaron, > xidalon, etx. - in which the first radical is part of the triliteral root. > Chaim? > > > -- > Jonathan D. Safren > Dept. of Biblical Studies > Beit Berl College > Beit Berl Post Office 44905 > Israel > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 12:19:42 +1100 From: "Martin A. Shields" Subject: Re: ane transliteration The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures (http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/) recommends using the transliteration scheme proposed at: http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/societies/RSN/Offline/off1.html with a couple of minor changes (this will only work if you're viewing this in a font such as Courier): <(ASCII)> aleph ) (41) alfa A (65) beth b beta B (66) gimel g gamma G (71) daleth d delta D (68) he h epsilon E (69) waw w digamma V (86) zayin z zeta Z (90) heth x eta H (72) tet + (43) theta Q (81) yod y iota I (73) kaph k kappa K (75) lamed l lamda L (76) mem m mu M (77) nun n nu N (78) samek s ksi C (67) ayin ( (40) omicron O (79) pe p pi P (80) tsade c qof q resh r rho R (82) sin & (38) sigma (all) S (83) shin $ (36) [or final= J (74)] sin/shin $ (36) taw t tau T (84) upsilon U (85) phi F (70) chi X (88) psi Y (89) omega W (87) patah a qametz f hireq i upper case sign * (42) segol e diaeresis + (43) tsereh " smooth breathing ) (41) holam o rough breathing ( (40) qibbuts u iota subscript | (124) shureq w. acute accent / (47) shewa : grave accent \ (92) hateph- -patah :a circumflex acc. = (61) -qametz :f subscript dot ? (63) -segol :e midpoint punct. : (58) To be honest, I always find these transliterations difficult to read and end up having to rewrite the words anyway... For ANE, however, we may want to try and extend/use this to describe the Semitic languages more broadly. Martin Shields. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 04:39:15 +0200 (IST) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: Re: ane Re: transliteration You raise a problem here of whether a transliteration system should be universally applicable or be good for a single language. I know that some people may not insist on using a dotted or a rockered h for het in Akkadian since there is only one het and no he. It makes things easier and there is no room for confusion, but most people nonetheless continue marking the het. I guess ultimatley it's a matter of personal or editorial preference and consideration of the needs of the potential audience. Victor On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > A huge reason not to use x for chet is that it's needed elsewhere > (Arabic, Ethiopic) for "kh" (German ch). For sade, S is useful because > of the parallel with T and H for the letters transliterated with > underdots, though of course c is "ts" throughout Eastern Europe -- but > elsewhere it's k, s, and ch, so it can be confusing. > > avigdor horovitz wrote: > > > > dear Peter, > > several years ago Chayim Cohen suggested a system for email > > transliteration of Hebrew which was systematic and accurate but > > which most people on ane have not adopted and which I dont remember, but > > perhaps you can find it in the archive. In all do respect to myself, I'd > > rather not serve as a precedent on this thing for I often "play it by > > ear" or use things I've seen others do. het is often given as x, and sadi > > as c. > > Victor > > > > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > > > We could at least type ` for `ayin and reserve ' for 'alep. And, as in > > > Avigdor's precedent, $ for shin, S for sade, T for tet, H for chet. (Sin > > > doesn't occur very often; how about, say, $+, which can't be mistaken > > > for anything else?) > -- > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net > ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1999 #312 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html