From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V1999 #364 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Saturday, December 25 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 364 ane seth=israel? ane A late-arrival reflection on "the fringe" ane Thank you, Santas! Re: ane A late-arrival reflection on "the fringe" ane: travel plans? ane SEth and the Hyksos RE: ane SEth and the Hyksos ane Greek Philistines? ane Tikunani/Tuneinir ane BASP 36 Re: ane Goliath story Re: ane SEth and the Hyksos Re: ane Greek Philistines? ane Re: ane FW: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: oi.unichicago.edu: host not found) ane Virus Warning Re: ane Virus Warning ane Re: Horus ; Seth and Osiris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:58:08 From: britam@netvision.net.il Subject: ane seth=israel? >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:33:50 -0800 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >Sender: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu >Reply-To: "Rick and Sandy Baude" > >But the prototype for many of the earlier younger son victories, in my > >> opinion, was Horus, who fought with his older brother Seth, for the throne > >> of Egypt and won. > >> Gary Greenberg > >Seth was not Horus's older brother, he was Horus's uncle. Seth murdered his >brother Osiris and siezed control of the throne. Isis, Osiris's sister and >wife found Osiris's body copulated with it and gave birth to Horus, who on >assumption of his manhood battled Seth. In the ensuing battle Seth gouged >out one of Horuses eyes, and Horus castrated Seth. Eventually Horus >triumphed over his evil uncle and regained control of the throne of Egypt. >Both Horus and Seth had their bodies restored to normal by Thoth the god of >writing. Even though Seth was imprisoned after the battle, he (in true >hollywood fashion) escaped so he could cause more havoc at a later date. > >This is an extremely abridged version of a very complex story, but it >preserves the main points of the myth. Is it true that Seth was later identified with the Hyksos and with Syria and Israel? If so, why so? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 06:14:56 -0500 From: "Christopher Robbins" Subject: ane A late-arrival reflection on "the fringe" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4DD6.33026BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone wrote: What a lot of pompous verbaige comes out over ane. Authors like Daniken, Velikovsky, Hancock and Bauval have introduced countless thousands of people to the past. Wether what they read is strictly true or otherwise is irrelevant. They are more likely to pick up a book on Egypt by an acceptable authority after reading Hancock than before they had read the said author. Knowledge is not an academic preserve anymore. People that sweep the road or load garbage into the back of a truck are just as likely to read about ancient Egypt as the bloke on the commuter train in smart clothes. Authors like Hancock flourish because they don't talk down to their readers, they are not arrogant and condescending like some of the people on ane. A successful academic might come out with a revolutionary idea in his 20s but unfortunately he is likely to spend the next 40 years debunking any attempt to undermine his pet theory. Velikovsky and Hancock have filled a niche. Long live the fringe. Amen. Well, having been away some while, I rather missed all this viz the "fringe" and am not quite sure to what precisely it refers. As to non-academics and members of the public at large becoming interested in historical subjects by virtue of having been exposed in one manner or another to perhaps outdated scholarship, historical novels, films with historical themes, or whatever else, this to my view is a wholly positive phenomenon not only for the enjoyment of the respective individuals but because such can often lead to an increasing engagement with the actual history in question along with the manner of, and the debates which surround, its construction and revision. This in turn tends to augment the general level of historical literacy which, though often lacking, is nonetheless increasingly required for the effective performance of the recurring and even quotidian responsibilities of the citizens of a free republic with a democratic polity. To take an imperial analog, consider Claudius when at age 51 he was raised up on the shields of the Praetorians, once Gaius had at last been dispatched. By every contemporary standard, including his own, could anyone have been less prepared to be a Roman Emperor? And yet in his isolate laity, Claudius had made a thorough study of the history of the Principate and the preceding Julio-Claudian century, and in consequence he was in some ways better prepared than those who had followed the normal _cursus honorum_ of an imperial prince. Indeed, he accomplished something which even the great captain Caesar had failed to achieve. So to the extent that the above poster is welcoming the lay public at large to the house of historical inquiry through whatever door they happened to enter, then I second that aspect of the "Amen". In re the "40 years debunking any attempt to undermine (a) pet theory," well, the "revisionist project," if I may simply call it that for brevity's sake, may not always be the prettiest sight in its present moment, but it has nonetheless become an inherent and indeed essential part of the historiographical process. Yes, there are cases, perhaps even one (or two) in our dear ANE forum, where spurious epithets are hurled by someone whose back is being being driven rapidly to corner by a more well-founded argument. That apart, however, well-researched and empirically-based positions need to be resolutely defended lest all manner of specious hypotheses gain a foothold or even become accepted by certain sub-communities. And similarly, when there are empirical data, further experience, and soundly reasoned judgments to support such an undertaking, reigning orthodoxies need to be vigorously and forcefully attacked lest their unintended error or other falsity remain unremediated. Careerism, private interests, and individual psychologies bear on and in some measure distort this process, as they do generally, and one can also become overly cynical vis a vis the notion that "every generation creates its own 'history'." Nonetheless, over the long term of its unfolding - at least in the West, and despite its various flaws, it has proven a remarkable success in defining the notion of history, in establishing the increasingly refined parameters of historiography, and in allowing us to have a more veracious, comprehensible, and functionally deployable approximation of historical phenomena than that which existed at virtually any time in the past as well as that which exists in many parts of the world today, resulting in an intelligibility which at one time would have been unimaginable. Which brings me, finally, to the question of "Wether (sic) what they read is strictly true or otherwise is irrelevant." If this be in reference to my metaphorical "doorway" or "engagement" mechanism for entering the house of historical inquiry, then it would seem harmless enough. After all, we all have to start somewhere, and it seems an inapt welcome to the potential new members of the household to expect that every historically-engaged person of the busy and variegated public at large will cross the threshold and be immediately converted into an R.G. Collingwood. But it is a very different thing in regard to the monograph and other expository output from within the house itself, especially by professional scholars. Here, indeed, the matter is far from being "irrelevant." But perhaps the error - or rather the misunderstanding - lies in the misplaced focus on product rather than process - on "truth" as some reified object as opposed to the process by which one goes about finding it. For there seems wide agreement, as R.G. himself once said, "that history is a kind of research or inquiry." Perhaps then the matter can be amicably and adequately resolved with a cite from the work which many far more knowledgeable than myself have felt to have made the most precision statement on the subject to date, Collingwood's posthumously published _The Idea of History_. Quote: "The four characteristics of history which I enumerated ...were (a) that it is scientific, or begins by asking questions, whereas the writer of legends begins by knowing something and tells what he knows; (b) that it is humanistic, or asks questions about things done by men at determinate times in the past; (c) that it is rational, or bases the answers which it gives to its question on grounds, namely appeal to evidence; (d) that it is self-revelatory, or exists in order to tell man what man is by telling him what man has done." Amen. Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4DD6.33026BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Someone wrote:
 
What a lot of pompous verbaige = comes out over=20 ane. Authors like Daniken, Velikovsky, Hancock and Bauval have = introduced=20 countless thousands of people to the past. Wether what they read is = strictly=20 true or otherwise is irrelevant. They are more likely to pick up a book = on Egypt=20 by an acceptable authority after reading Hancock than before they had = read the=20 said author. Knowledge is not an academic preserve anymore. People that = sweep=20 the road or load garbage into the back of a truck are just as likely to = read=20 about ancient Egypt as the bloke on the commuter train in smart clothes. = Authors=20 like Hancock flourish because they don't talk down to their readers, = they are=20 not arrogant and condescending like some of the people on ane. A = successful=20 academic might come out with a revolutionary idea in his 20s but = unfortunately=20 he is likely to spend the next 40 years debunking any attempt to = undermine his=20 pet theory. Velikovsky and Hancock have filled a niche. Long live the = fringe.=20 Amen. 
 
Well, having=20 been away some while, I rather missed all this viz = the "fringe"=20 and am not quite sure to what precisely it refers.  As to = non-academics=20 and members of the public at large becoming interested in = historical=20 subjects by virtue of having been exposed in one manner or another to=20 perhaps outdated scholarship, historical novels, films with = historical=20 themes, or whatever else, this to my view is a wholly positive = phenomenon not only for the enjoyment of the respective individuals = but=20 because such can often lead to an increasing engagement with the actual = history=20 in question along with the manner of, and the debates which surround, = its=20 construction and revision.  This in turn tends to augment the = general level=20 of historical literacy which, though often lacking, is nonetheless = increasingly=20 required for the effective performance of the recurring and even = quotidian=20 responsibilities of the citizens of a free republic with a democratic=20 polity.
 
To take an=20 imperial analog, consider Claudius when at age 51 he was raised up on = the=20 shields of the Praetorians, once Gaius had at last been=20 dispatched.  By every contemporary standard, including his = own,=20 could anyone have been less prepared to be a Roman Emperor?  = And yet=20 in his isolate laity, Claudius had made a thorough study of the = history of=20 the Principate and the preceding Julio-Claudian century, and in = consequence he=20 was in some ways better prepared than those who had followed the normal = _cursus=20 honorum_ of an imperial prince.  Indeed, he accomplished something = which=20 even the great captain Caesar had failed to achieve.  So to the = extent that=20 the above poster is welcoming the lay public at large to the house of = historical=20 inquiry through whatever door they happened to enter, then I second that = aspect=20 of the "Amen".
 
In re the "40=20 years debunking any attempt to undermine (a) pet theory," well, the = "revisionist=20 project," if I may simply call it that for brevity's sake, may not = always=20 be the prettiest sight in its present moment, but it has nonetheless = become an=20 inherent and indeed essential part of the historiographical = process.  Yes,=20 there are cases, perhaps even one (or two) in our dear ANE forum, where = spurious=20 epithets are hurled by someone whose back is being being driven rapidly = to=20 corner by a more well-founded argument.  That apart,=20 however, well-researched and empirically-based positions need to be = resolutely defended lest all manner of specious hypotheses gain a = foothold or=20 even become accepted by certain sub-communities.  And similarly, = when there=20 are empirical data, further experience, and soundly reasoned judgments = to=20 support such an undertaking, reigning orthodoxies need to be vigorously = and=20 forcefully attacked lest their unintended error or other falsity remain=20 unremediated.  Careerism, private interests, and individual = psychologies=20 bear on and in some measure distort this process, as they do generally, = and one=20 can also become overly cynical vis a vis the notion that "every = generation=20 creates its own 'history'."  Nonetheless, over the long term of its = unfolding - at least in the West, and despite its various flaws, it has = proven a=20 remarkable success in defining the notion of history, in establishing = the=20 increasingly refined parameters of historiography, and in allowing us to = have a=20 more veracious, comprehensible, and functionally deployable = approximation of=20 historical phenomena than that which existed at virtually any time in = the past=20 as well as that which exists in many parts of the world today, = resulting in=20 an intelligibility which at one time would have been=20 unimaginable.
 
Which brings=20 me, finally, to the question of "Wether (sic) what they read is strictly = true or=20 otherwise is irrelevant."  If this be in reference to my=20 metaphorical "doorway" or "engagement" mechanism for entering = the=20 house of historical inquiry, then it would seem harmless enough.  = After=20 all, we all have to start somewhere, and it seems an inapt welcome to = the=20 potential new members of the household to expect that every = historically-engaged=20 person of the busy and variegated public at large will cross the = threshold and=20 be immediately converted into an R.G. Collingwood.
 
But it=20 is a very different thing in regard to the monograph and other = expository=20 output from within the house itself, especially by professional=20 scholars.  Here, indeed, the matter is far from being = "irrelevant." =20 But perhaps the error - or rather the misunderstanding - lies in=20 the misplaced focus on product rather than process - on "truth" as=20 some reified object as opposed to the process by which one goes = about=20 finding it.  For there seems wide agreement, as R.G. himself once = said,=20 "that history is a kind of research or inquiry."  Perhaps then = the=20 matter can be amicably and adequately resolved with a cite from the = work which many far more knowledgeable than myself have felt to = have made=20 the most precision statement on the subject to date, Collingwood's=20 posthumously published _The Idea of History_.  = Quote:
"The four=20 characteristics of history which I enumerated ...were (a) = that it is=20 scientific, or begins by asking questions, whereas the writer of = legends=20 begins by knowing something and tells what he knows; (b) that it = is=20 humanistic, or asks questions about things done by men at determinate = times in=20 the past; (c) that it is rational, or bases the answers which it gives = to its=20 question on grounds, namely appeal to evidence; (d) that it is=20 self-revelatory, or exists in order to tell man what man is by telling = him=20 what man has done."
Amen.
 
Christopher Robbins
New York City
crisica@idt.net
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4DD6.33026BC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:41:56 +0200 From: Naccache Subject: ane Thank you, Santas! Three sustaining articles to sink my teeth into during this long weekend, two by members of the ANE-list, and one called to our attention by a list member! Abr-Nahrain 35 (1998) finally made it into the stacks, and I now have photocopies of: - - Joseph Azize, "Who was responsible for the Assyrian King List", 1-27. - - Brian E. Colless, "The Canaanite Syllabary", 28-46. and thanks to Cynthia Edenburg's 21/12 post, I have downloaded: - - Mario Liverani, "Nuovi sviluppi nello studio della storia dell’Israele biblico", Biblica 80 (1999), 488-505. Thanks to all, Best, Albert Naccache anaccash@nidal.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:34:14 -0400 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane A late-arrival reflection on "the fringe" Over the past few weeks there's been an alarming increase of people posting in html to ANE List. In almost every case, this causes (a) very slow download and (b) great loss in legibility because of small size, eye-burningly vivid colors, italics, or combinations of all three. Could y'all turn off your html for your List postings? Thanks, and happy holidays! - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:29:04 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: ane: travel plans? Dear ane-ers; I've a question for all of you thinking about travel over the winter break (and those of you not thinking about travel or not getting a winter break): How long do you think it would take a messenger to go from Memphis in Egypt to Susa, Persia after the building of the Suez Canal by Darius? And how long back again, if different? I'm assuming boat travel, not overland. Thanks a lot. I appreciate having all of you here to ask about these things. Liz Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY 10012 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:25:17 -0800 From: "Rick and Sandy Baude" Subject: ane SEth and the Hyksos This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4DE8.68FC9B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes it's true that Seth was identified with the Hyksos. The Hyksos main god was a storm god (can't remember his name). Seth also was an egyptian storm god, and after the Hyksos invaded Egypt they adopted him as one of theirs. When the Hyksos were driven from Egypt, Seth was expelled from the Egyptian pantheon too. But again this is a complex issue that isn't fully understood because a later Egyptian pharaoh, Seti, took his name and became one of the great kings of Egypt. Rick Baudé - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4DE8.68FC9B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes it's true that Seth was identified with the Hyksos. The = Hyksos main=20 god was a storm god (can't remember his name). Seth also was an egyptian = storm=20 god, and after the Hyksos invaded Egypt they adopted him as one of = theirs. =20 When the Hyksos were driven from Egypt, Seth was expelled from the = Egyptian=20 pantheon too.
 
But again this is a complex issue that isn't fully understood = because a=20 later Egyptian pharaoh,  Seti, took his name and became one of the = great=20 kings of Egypt. 
 
Rick Baudé 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4DE8.68FC9B80-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:32:06 -0500 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane SEth and the Hyksos This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF4E02.81A15BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I assume the association of Seth with the Hyksos and other foreigners is because Seth is the god of destruction and chaos. Liz -----Original Message----- From: owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On Behalf Of Rick and Sandy Baude Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 11:25 AM To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: ane SEth and the Hyksos Yes it's true that Seth was identified with the Hyksos. The Hyksos main god was a storm god (can't remember his name). Seth also was an egyptian storm god, and after the Hyksos invaded Egypt they adopted him as one of theirs. When the Hyksos were driven from Egypt, Seth was expelled from the Egyptian pantheon too. But again this is a complex issue that isn't fully understood because a later Egyptian pharaoh, Seti, took his name and became one of the great kings of Egypt. Rick Baudé - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF4E02.81A15BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 assume the association of Seth with the Hyksos and other foreigners is = because=20 Seth is the god of destruction and chaos.
Liz
-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu=20 [mailto:owner-ane@oi.uchicago.edu]On Behalf Of Rick and Sandy = Baude
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 11:25 = AM
To:=20 ane@oi.uchicago.edu
Subject: ane SEth and the=20 Hyksos

Yes it's true that Seth was = identified with=20 the Hyksos. The Hyksos main god was a storm god (can't remember his = name).=20 Seth also was an egyptian storm god, and after the Hyksos invaded = Egypt they=20 adopted him as one of theirs.  When the Hyksos were driven from = Egypt,=20 Seth was expelled from the Egyptian pantheon too. =
 
But again this is a complex issue = that isn't=20 fully understood because a later Egyptian pharaoh,  Seti, took = his name=20 and became one of the great kings of = Egypt. 
 
Rick Baudé =20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF4E02.81A15BC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:43:47 +0100 From: "Bjarte Kaldhol" Subject: ane Greek Philistines? Dear list members, Gary Greenberg wrote: "Well, the Philistines were apparently from Mycenaean Greeks and would have known the basic Greek traditions of that time, including any pre-homeric accounts of the Trojan War." This sounds very unlikely. Did the Philistines have Greek (or even Indo-European) names? What about a name like $uwardatu from Gath? Many Hurrian names begin with $uwar-, a verb connected in some way with the word $uwe, "day", and even if the second element, -datu, does not sound a bell, this name may be Hurrian or related in some way to Hurrian names. There is also the name Tagi, which must be Hurrian (= pure, bright, Akkadian nuru). The Philistines may have been a mixed people, but Greeks? Please give me something more concrete. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:46:31 +0100 From: "Bjarte Kaldhol" Subject: ane Tikunani/Tuneinir Dear listmembers, Michael Fuller wrote: "Tuneinir is an urban site along the Khabur River (in the Gezira province of Syria) that has an occupation ranging from Ninevite V (ca. 2600 BCE) until AD 1401 (Tamerlane). Reading your post made me wonder if the name of Tuneinir might be a corruption of Tikunani." I am sorry, but I can see no relationship between Tuneinir and Tikunani (probably Tigunane). I am also unable to relate the name Tikunani to any known Hurrian roots. But please inform me if you dig up ANYTHING Hurrian at Tell Tuneinir! Best wishes, and Happy Holidays, Bjarte Kaldhol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:46:10 -0500 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane BASP 36 Dear Colleagues, BASP 36:1-4 (1999) has just appeared. The contents of this volume are listed below. The editorial board for this volume consisted of Terry Wilfong, Timothy Renner and John Whitehorne. This was my last volume as general editor, and I'd like to thank the contributors, reviewers and colleagues who have been involved with BASP for their support (with special thanks to my co-editors Tim and John, and to Jenni Sheridan for all her help). Best wishes for a happy new year, - --Terry Wilfong Department of Near Eastern Studies and Kelsey Museum of Archaeology, University of Michigan - --------------------------- CONTENTS Notationes Legentis Naphtali Lewis................................................5 Three Loans from the Berlin Collection C. A. Nelson.................................................17 Greek, Coptic and Jewish Magic in the Cairo Genizah Gideon Bohak.................................................27 Lender, Borrower and Banker in P.Yale I 65 Roger S. Bagnall.............................................45 The Death Declarations of Roman Egypt: A Re-appraisal Walter Scheidel..............................................53 Namesakes of Saint Thecla in Late Antique Egypt Stephen J. Davis.............................................71 A Note on Syriac Sabitha and Kollathon in the Papyri Philip Mayerson..............................................83 alukes kth/ in the Aphrodito Papyri = kollathon of Salt? Philip Mayerson..............................................87 Ka(m)psakes in the Papyri, LXX and TLG Philip Mayerson..............................................93 Lease of a Vineyard Shawn Dry....................................................99 P.Oxy. XXIV 2422 Revised: Report of a Collection of Meat Bruce Nielsen...............................................105 Transactions Involving gleukos/moustos: Must or Wine? Or Must Wine? Philip Mayerson.............................................123 BOOK REVIEWS: Hannah M. Cotton and Ada Yardeni, Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek Documentary Texts from Nahal Hever (Roger S. Bagnall)..........................................129 Irene-Maria Cervenka-Ehrenstrasser, Lexikon der Lateinischen Lehnwoerter, Faszikel I (Ruth Duttenhoefer).........................................139 Susan Walker and Morris Bierbrier, Ancient Faces (Thelma K. Thomas)..........................................143 Morris Bierbrier, ed., Portraits and Masks (David T. Frankfurter)......................................147 Raif Georges Khoury, Papyrologische Studien (Gladys Frantz-Murphy)......................................153 Richard Hunter, Theocritus and the Archaeology of Greek Poetry (David Kutzko)..............................................155 Mark Depauw, A Companion to Demotic Studies (Alexandra A. O'Brien)......................................163 J. Albert Harrill, The Manumission of Slaves in Early Christianity (Timothy Teeter)............................................165 S. R. Llewelyn, ed. New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity 8 (Peter van Minnen)..........................................169 K.A. Worp and A. Rijksbaron, eds., The Kellis Isocrates Codex (John Whitehorne)...........................................177 Kuhn, K. H. and W. J. Tait, eds., Thirteen Coptic Acrostic Hymns (Terry Wilfong).............................................183 Sylvie Cauville, Le Temple de Dendara: Les chapelles osiriennes (Terry Wilfong).............................................187 Raffaella Cribiore, Writing, Teachers and Students in Graeco- Roman Egypt (Scott Bucking).............................................191 Bulletin de Liaison du Groupe International d'Egypte de la Ceramique Egyptienne XIX (Darlene Brooks Hedstrom)...................................203 Books Received................................................206 Plates ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:02:59 -0600 (CST) From: Giuseppe Del Monte Subject: Re: ane Goliath story At 20.49 22/12/99 GMT, mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) wrote: if we consider the development -nt- > >-t(t)- in Hieroglyphic Luwian (?) and its successor Lycian. But there is no such development either in HL or in Lycian: both in fact keep the nasal(ization) on. Neither is Lycian a "successor" of Hieroglyphic Luwian, but a separate, and older, branch of the Luwian languages group. See F. Starke, Untersuchung zur Stammbildung des keilschrift-luwischen Nomens, Wiesbaden 1990. Best wishes for the new year to all, Giuseppe Del Monte - -------------- Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte Cattedra di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico Università di Pisa via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail delmonte@lunet.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:26:08 -0800 From: "morris silver" Subject: Re: ane SEth and the Hyksos On December 24, 1999 Liz Fried wrote: I assume the association of Seth with the Hyksos and other foreigners is because Seth is the god of destruction and chaos. Liz Dear Liz: I think it is more likely because of the association of Seth (like Baal) with the seas and the origins of Egyptian caravan routes. He is likely a god of hospitality. Best, Morris Morris Silver Department of Economics City College of New York ANCIENT ECONOMIES I http://sondmor.tripod.com/index-html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 20:17:28 -0500 From: "Gary Greenberg" Subject: Re: ane Greek Philistines? > The Philistines may have been a mixed people, but Greeks? Please give me > something more concrete. > > Best wishes, > Bjarte Kaldhol > Sorry, I was just relying on mainstream archaeological and historical viewpoints. The Philistine pottery, I believe, uses Mycenaean themes. They were among the tribes identified with the Sea Peoples and came from outside of Canaan. THre settlement patterns are primarily on the western coast of Canaan. Gary Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 20:11:45 -0500 From: "Gary Greenberg" Subject: ane Re: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF4E4B.1A636AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The version of the Horus-Seth myth you cite below is one of several = conflicting traditions about Horus due to the fact that there were = several different deities named Horus and possibly more than one Seth. = In the New Kingdom story of the Contendings of Horus and Seth, Horus is = referred to as the younger brother of Seth. In Plutarch's account Horus = is Seth's younger brother and both are born from Nut's womb. Seth forces = his way out of Nut's womb ahead of his time, pushing ahead of Horus, = like Esau and Jacob. Other Horuses are born during the story.There was = also Horus the Elder who in other traditions is Seth's older brother. = The role of Horus as Set's younger brother is memorialized in the = Egyptian calendar, with the five extra days at the end of the year named = for the five children of Nut in order of birth. If I recall correctly, = this Horus is born after Seth and before Isis. Seth was associated with the wild deserts on Egypt's borders and the = association of foreigners with Seth is based in part on this association = and in part on his connection to the foreign Hyksos who made him the = chief deity in Egypt.He was not expelled from the Egyptian pantheon = after the expulsion of the Hyksos. His negative associations begin = closer to the first millennium BC, a half millennium later. In the = Contendings of Horus and Seth, for which we have a written copy dating = to the Twentieth Dynasty, Seth has the support of Re as successor to = Osiris. He is depicted as Re's mighty defender, and there is no mention = or criticism of his role in Osiris's death, not even when Osiris appears = in the story. Gary Greenberg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rick and Sandy Baude=20 To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu=20 Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 2:33 AM But the prototype for many of the earlier younger son victories, in my > opinion, was Horus, who fought with his older brother Seth, for the = throne > of Egypt and won. > Gary Greenberg Seth was not Horus's older brother, he was Horus's uncle. Seth = murdered his brother Osiris and siezed control of the throne. Isis, = Osiris's sister and wife found Osiris's body copulated with it and gave = birth to Horus, who on assumption of his manhood battled Seth. In the = ensuing battle Seth gouged out one of Horuses eyes, and Horus castrated = Seth. Eventually Horus triumphed over his evil uncle and regained = control of the throne of Egypt. Both Horus and Seth had their bodies = restored to normal by Thoth the god of writing. Even though Seth was = imprisoned after the battle, he (in true hollywood fashion) escaped so = he could cause more havoc at a later date. =20 This is an extremely abridged version of a very complex story, but it = preserves the main points of the myth. =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF4E4B.1A636AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The version of the Horus-Seth myth you cite below is = one of=20 several conflicting traditions about Horus due to the fact that there = were=20 several different deities named Horus and possibly more than one Seth. = In the=20 New Kingdom story of the Contendings of Horus and Seth, Horus is = referred to as=20 the younger brother of Seth. In Plutarch's account Horus is Seth's = younger=20 brother and both are born from Nut's womb. Seth forces his way out of = Nut's womb=20 ahead of his time, pushing ahead of Horus, like Esau and Jacob. Other = Horuses=20 are born during the story.There was also Horus the Elder who in other = traditions=20 is Seth's older brother. The role of Horus as Set's younger brother is=20 memorialized in the Egyptian calendar, with the five extra days at the = end of=20 the year named for the five children of Nut in order of birth. If I = recall=20 correctly, this Horus is born after Seth and before Isis.
 
Seth was associated with the wild deserts on Egypt's = borders=20 and the association of foreigners with Seth is based in part on this = association=20 and in part on his connection to the foreign Hyksos who made him the = chief deity=20 in Egypt.He was not expelled from the Egyptian pantheon after the = expulsion of=20 the Hyksos. His negative associations begin closer to the first = millennium BC, a=20 half millennium later. In the Contendings of Horus and Seth, for which = we have a=20 written copy dating to the Twentieth Dynasty, Seth has the support of Re = as=20 successor to Osiris. He is depicted as Re's mighty defender, and there=20 is no mention or criticism of his role in Osiris's death, not even = when=20 Osiris appears in the story.
 
Gary Greenberg
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rick and=20 Sandy Baude
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 = 2:33=20 AM

But the prototype for many of the earlier younger son victories, in = my

> opinion, was Horus, who fought with his older brother Seth, = for the=20 throne

> of Egypt and won.

> Gary Greenberg

Seth was not Horus's older brother, he was Horus's uncle. = Seth murdered=20 his brother Osiris and siezed control of the throne. Isis, Osiris's = sister and=20 wife found Osiris's body copulated with it and gave birth to Horus, = who on=20 assumption of his manhood battled Seth. In the ensuing battle Seth = gouged out=20 one of Horuses eyes, and Horus castrated Seth. Eventually Horus = triumphed over=20 his evil uncle and regained control of the throne of Egypt. Both Horus = and=20 Seth had their bodies restored to normal by Thoth the god of = writing. =20 Even though Seth was imprisoned after the battle, he (in true = hollywood=20 fashion) escaped so he could cause more havoc at a later=20 date.
 
This is an extremely abridged version of a very complex = story, but it=20 preserves the main points of the myth. =20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF4E4B.1A636AE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:06:51 -0800 From: "Rick and Sandy Baude" Subject: ane FW: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: oi.unichicago.edu: host not found) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4E39.A797A960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4E39.A797A960 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment From: "Rick and Sandy Baude" To: Subject: Seth the chaotic Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:49:56 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf4e7a$58706200$f07279a5@zqkciqap> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF4E39.A74CE4C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF4E39.A74CE4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Morris Silver wrote; I think it is more likely because of the association of Seth (like Baal) with the seas and the origins of Egyptian caravan routes. He is likely a god of hospitality. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Seth was a powerful and ferocious god a god that was both respected and feared. He was surrounded by a coterie of about 72 or so co-conspirators. He was anything but hospitable. He is always associated with turbulence, chaos, fury, treachery. He lied, murdered, and left nothing but chaos in his wake. Rick Baudé - ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF4E39.A74CE4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Morris=20 Silver wrote; I think it is more likely because of the = association=20 of Seth (like Baal)

with the seas and the origins of Egyptian caravan routes. He is = likely a=20 god

of hospitality.

NOTHING could be further from the truth. Seth was a powerful = and=20 ferocious god a god that was both respected and feared. He was = surrounded by a=20 coterie of about 72 or so co-conspirators. He was anything but = hospitable. He is=20 always associated with turbulence, chaos, fury, treachery. He lied, = murdered,=20 and left nothing but chaos in his wake.
 
Rick Baudé 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF4E39.A74CE4C0-- - ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4E39.A797A960-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:16:30 -0800 From: "Rick and Sandy Baude" Subject: ane Virus Warning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF4E3B.00757D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warning on December 25, 1999 you may receive an email called, Lump of Coal...do not open it, it contains a deadly virus...it will erase your windows along with many other program files. Pass this on as soon as you can to get the WORD out!!! This is not a hoax....this was reported on the CBS morning news August 20,1999. Watch out for this one. # 2*****IT IS REAL AND NOT A JOKE!!!!***** If you receive an e-mail titled "IT TAKES GUTS TO SAY JESUS" DO NOT OPEN IT It will erase everything on your hard drive. This information was announced yesterday morning from IBM; AOL states that this is a very dangerous virus, much worse than "Melissa", and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Some very sick individual has succeeded in using the reformat function from Norton Utilities causing it to completely erase all documents on the hard drive. It has been designed to work with Netscape Navigator and Microsoft Internet Explorer. It destroys Macintosh and IBM compatible computers. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it Pass this warning along to EVERYONE in your address book and please share it with all your online friends ASAP so that this threat may be stopped. Please practice cautionary measures and tell anyone that may have access to your computer. Forward this warning to everyone that might access the internet. Again this is not a joke!!!!!! - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF4E3B.00757D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Warning on December 25, 1999 you may receive an email called,  Lump

of Coal...do not open it, it contains a deadly=20 virus...it will erase your windows along with many other = program=20 files. Pass

this=20 on as soon as you can to get the WORD out!!! This is not = a

hoax....this was reported on the CBS morning news August = 20,1999.=20 Watch

out=20 for this one. # 2*****IT IS REAL AND NOT A = JOKE!!!!*****

 If you receive an e-mail titled "IT TAKES GUTS TO SAY=20 JESUS"

DO NOT OPEN IT It will erase everything on your hard drive. This

information was announced yesterday morning from IBM; AOL states = that

this=20 is a  very dangerous virus, much = worse than=20 "Melissa", and that

there=20 is NO remedy for it at this time. Some very sick = individual=20 has succeeded in using the

reformat  function from Norton Utilities causing it = to=20 completely erase all

documents on the hard drive. It has been designed to work with = Netscape=20 Navigator and

Microsoft  Internet Explorer. It destroys Macintosh = and IBM=20 compatible

computers. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many = people

know about it Pass this warning along to EVERYONE in your = address=20 book

and please  share it with all your online friends ASAP = so that=20 this=20 threat

may be=20 stopped.

Please practice cautionary measures and tell anyone that

may=20 have access to your computer. Forward this = warning to=20 everyone that

might=20 access the internet.

Again this is not a joke!!!!!!

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF4E3B.00757D40-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:58:50 -0600 From: Peter Diebenow Subject: Re: ane Virus Warning - --=====================_5760884==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:16 PM 12/24/1999 -0800, Rick and Sandy Baude wrote: >Warning on December 25, 1999 you may receive an email called, Lump > >of Coal...do not open it, it contains a deadly virus...it will erase your >windows along with many other program files. Pass Check this out: http://kumite.com/myths/ > If you receive an e-mail titled "IT TAKES GUTS TO SAY JESUS" > >DO NOT OPEN IT It will erase everything on your hard drive. This... And for this one, see: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html Now PLEASE, PLEASE bookmark these two sites and consult them before you "litter" the net any more with misinformation. Thank you! - --pete - --=====================_5760884==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 06:16 PM 12/24/1999 -0800, Rick and Sandy Baude wrote:

Warning on December 25, 1999 you may receive an email called, Lump

of Coal...do not open it, it contains a deadly virus...it will erase your windows along with many other program files. Pass


Check this out: http://kumite.com/myths/


 If you receive an e-mail titled "IT TAKES GUTS TO SAY JESUS"

DO NOT OPEN IT It will erase everything on your hard drive. This...


And for this one, see: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html

Now PLEASE, PLEASE bookmark these two sites and consult them before you "litter" the net any more with misinformation. Thank you!

- --pete - --=====================_5760884==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 00:31:37 EST From: JDe2129629@aol.com Subject: ane Re: Horus ; Seth and Osiris Dear Members of the ANE list: One of the most debated aspects of this myth is when did Osiris join the legend? Some believe Osiris was a god far back into history. Others note that of the hundreds of texts from Dynasty IV, not one mention is made of Osiris. Until hard evidence is discovered for his existence at that time, I will be inclined to believe he was an addition to the Egyptian pantheon during Dynasty V. But I would be delighted if someone proves this position wrong. Wishing everyone a Marry Christmas, I am, Sincerely yours, John Deaton. ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V1999 #364 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html