From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V2000 #34 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 034 ane Josephus and Chronicles ane 1540 BCE Exodus etc ane Re:ANE Chronicles at Qumran RE: ane Questions: 1) dss orthography, 2) Chronicles ane Lonmdon Diary: Mar 13 seminar, alteration ane The Palestinian coastal people (was: 1540 BCE Exodus etc) ane Cairo Congress ane The Mitanni king Saustatar ane Ecole Biblique Catalogue on CD-ROM ane Dating Exodus ane Exhibition on Calendars Re: ane Exodus of 1540 BCE ? Re: ane Dating Exodus ane 1) Exodus Hyksos 2) Philistines Re: ane Exodus of 1540 BCE ? Re: ane 1) Exodus Hyksos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:24:40 +0200 From: Cynthia Edenburg Subject: ane Josephus and Chronicles Firstly, thanks to all with the help on the Jacobsen reference. Ian, Thumbing at random through Jewish Antiquities shows that Josephus' description of the latter part of David's reign seems to be based upon knowledge of Chronicles. Cf. Jewish Antiquities VII 363-382 ane compare I Chr. 23-29. See also the account of the war between Jeroboam and Abijah: Antiquities VIII 274 ff. and II Chr. 13. This event is not related in Kings, so Josephus must have derived it from Chr. These are only random examples, and can be multiplied upon careful reading of the texts. Cynthia Edenburg The Open University of Israel Tel. 972-3-6460500 fax. 972-3-460767 Dept. of History, Philosophy and Jewish Studies POB 39328 Rehov Klausner 16 Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 61392 ISRAEL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:56:35 -0000 From: "John Bimson" Subject: ane 1540 BCE Exodus etc Walter Mattfeld's Exodus synthesis incorporates several scholarly myths. Firstly, 'The Peleset arrived ca. 1177 BCE'; Robert Drews has convincingly taken this one apart. See most recently his paper 'Canaanites and Philistines', JSOT 81, 1989, pp. 39-61. Essentially (to quote from the abstract) the Peleset/Palashtin were most likely 'the Northwest Semitic speaking majority among whom the [kaptorim] immigrant minority had settled.' (p. 61) Which means they were there all the time. Secondly, 'Ramses III after defeating the Peleset in 1177 BCE boasted of "sealing them in his name" and establishing them in fortresses to the east of Egypt and the Gaza area. Evidently vague memories of the Peleset settling down in Philistia after their defeat... is what is behind the Genesis' table of nations....' But (as several people have pointed out in response to a common misunderstanding) this isn't what Ramesses III says at all. Papyrus Harris actually says: '...The Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Weshesh of the Sea were made nonexistent, captured all together and brought in captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore. I settled them in strongholds, bound in my name.' (Wilson's translation) So the Peleset are not specifically included among those who were 'settled in strongholds', but even if they were, the strongholds were clearly *in Egypt*, not 'to the east of Egypt and the Gaza area'! Thirdly and more generally, Walter's comparison between the Exodus story and the expulsion of the Hyksos suggests that he thinks the latter involved large numbers moving from Egypt to Canaan. In fact, as Van Seters pointed out over 30 years ago, '...There is no evidence for any great expulsion of peoples from Egypt into Asia. The defeat of the foreign dynasty was the result of a civil war, and the foreign population... simply continued to live in the Eastern Delta.' (The Hyksos: A New Investigation, 1967, p. 194) The only written source which mentions the eviction of a large defeated population is Manetho, as quoted in Josephus, Contra Ap., i, 85-89, where (as Redford points out) there is already great confusion between the defeat of the Hyksos and the siege of Megiddo by Thutmosis III (Thoummosis). This reduces the parallels between 'the Hyksos expulsion' and the Exodus story to nil. John Bimson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:48:38 +0200 (IST) From: chaim cohen Subject: ane Re:ANE Chronicles at Qumran Dear Ian and list members, Let me take this opportunity to inform you all of a new important tool for research concerning the Biblical scrolls among the DSS. M. Abegg Jr., P. Flint and E. Ulrich, THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS BIBLE (Harper-Collins: New York, 1999). Although this work does not include the original Hebrew text of the scrolls, it does note all the major variants between the scrolls, the MT, the LXX and the Sam. Torah, as well as among the scrolls themselves if a particular verse is recorded on more than one scroll (e.g. Isaiah). Ian, on pages 632-633 of this work, 4QChr is translated. It includes altogether II Chr. 28:27-29:3. The following is the first paragraph of the introduction to this translation on p. 632: "Only a single small fragment, dated about 50-25 BCE, remains out of the sixty-five chapters of 1 and 2 Chronicles. In contrast, four manuscripts of 1 and 2 Samuel and three of 1 and 2 Kings were preserved, one quite extensively. The relative scarcity of Chronicles at Qumran could be a matter of either chance or design, since Chronicles has a strong focus on Jerusalem and the Temple, from which the Qumran community had removed itself." All the best, Chaim Cohen On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Ian Hutchesson wrote: > Hello. > > 1) dss orthography > > As I'm not a member of the Orion, the DSS list, I wrote to the moderator to > ask her to post a question, to which she wrote back suggesting I post it to > ANE. I understand that there are a few people who work on the scrolls on > this list, so please bear with me! I'm looking at a fragment of a scroll > which contains a tail of a letter cut off in the lacuna followed by a final > nun. The two options for that tail seem to me to be either a preceding taw > or a nun. As the remaining stroke is horizontal -- or even slightly rising > -- a friend has opted for calling it a taw, as the second stroke of a nun > tends to drop in order to accommodate the following letter above the second > stroke. However, such accommodation is not possible with a final nun which > drops well below the normal second stroke of an ordinary nun. In fact > there's a pot from Qumran (de Vaux's plate XV) which bears the name ywxnn > in which the second stroke of the non-final nun rises. I wonder if people > have noticed such a general phenomenon, also perhaps before other final > letters, kaph or pe. I'll put a scan of the name at this address for any > interested person: > > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/5210/ywxnn1.jpg > > This is not a very clear scan generally, but the relevant letters are. > > 2) > > There is no copy of the books of Chronicles amongst the DSS. In fact the > histories in general are relatively poorly represented amongst the scrolls, > perhaps four or five copies of Samuel materials and very little of Kings. > Josephus, in his preface to the Jewish Antiquities, says that he is > translating for the first time a lot of his materials from Hebrew books. > Does he however give any sign of having known Chronicles at all? (If so, it > would at least provide an ad quem dating.) > > > Thanks for any feedback. > > > Cheers, > > > Ian > > > Ian Hutchesson > mc2499@mclink.it > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/5210/dss.htm > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:28:34 +0100 From: Ian Hutchesson Subject: RE: ane Questions: 1) dss orthography, 2) Chronicles A quick thanks to all those people who kindly responded to my fishing expedition on Chronicles, Virgil, Chaim, Cynthia and Niels Peter. Perhaps, that's another conjecture of mine well and truly shot down. (And I still bear a glimmer of hope of some response to my main question on the orthographic item.) I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Aayko for his comments on my partial summary of Garbini's "I Filistei". Cheers, Ian Ian Hutchesson mc2499@mclink.it http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/5210/histreli.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:24:33 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Lonmdon Diary: Mar 13 seminar, alteration Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: Andrew George The London Centre for the ANE research seminar scheduled for 13 March: Mariana Giovinu, Old and new thoughts on the Sacred Tree has been replaced following the unavoidable withdrawal of the speaker by: Paul J. Cowie, Caught in the Crossroads - Tel Rehov and the rediscovery of an ancient city in the north Jordan valley SOAS, Russell Sq WC1. College Buildings, Room G3. 6 pm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:55:38 -0500 From: "Christopher Robbins" Subject: ane The Palestinian coastal people (was: 1540 BCE Exodus etc) Partly in the interests of brevity, I copy below only the first paragraph of John Bimson's informed posting of 2/2/00: >Walter Mattfeld's Exodus synthesis incorporates several scholarly myths. Firstly, 'The Peleset arrived ca. 1177 BCE'; Robert Drews has convincingly taken this one apart. See most recently his paper 'Canaanites and Philistines', JSOT 81, 1989, pp. 39-61. Essentially (to quote from the abstract) the Peleset/Palashtin were most likely 'the Northwest Semitic speaking majority among whom the [kaptorim] immigrant minority had settled.' (p. 61) Which means they were there all the time. [...] Hello John, and I certainly welcome you to these exchanges, which have wide and considerable implications. First, I hope you will allow me to correct what is obviously a minor typographical error. The JSOT 81 to which you refer above was from 1998 (not 1989). But whatever the date, the argument there presented, as you suggested, is powerful and convincing. I shall segue from the exodus chronology to another aspect of the matter which in historical (as opposed to, say, theological or religious-historical) terms is perhaps the more significant. Because (as you seem to be well aware, John), once it finally soaks in that the Peleset (or Palestinians) were in the coastal Levant all along and were absolutely not new arrivals at the dawn of the c 12, the whole notion of some transmarine migration of "sea peoples" simply vanishes, and we can begin at last a serious examination of the drastic and cataclysmic events that attended the end of the Aegean Bronze Age. This notion of "sea peoples" has been around for over a century now, and its tenure alone has tended to valence it by repetition and imprint it so deeply in the modern imagination that it is seldom remembered how fictive and conjectural it was at the moment of its invention in the 1870's. At the center of that invention was Gaston Maspero, who, in the course of essays he published in the 1870's, contradicted the generally held view of his day (that the Peleset were Egypt's Levantine neighbors) to propose instead that they were not Semitic but European and had come originally in a migration from Crete. Why they were expelled from Crete is not very well answered, but their objective (per Maspero) was Egypt, and it was only in failing there that they settled in the neighboring Levantine territory which thenceforth would bear their name. By the time Maspero published his major work in 1895 (_Historie ancienne des peuples de l'orient classique_), his "sea peoples" hypothesis was more fully imagined, even if the details of the story had changed. Turns out that the Peleset had not come directly from Crete after all. They has migrated first to southern Anatolia, whence they at some later point migrated again to their new home in the Levant. The larger framework that is required for this particular story to work involves elements that are frankly preposterous. In some fairness we may note that Maspero was working before the great excavations on the Greek mainland and Crete and in Asia Minor and the Levant had taken place and before the catastrophic events at the end of the Bronze Age had been perceived. It was an unsupportable error nonetheless, but we may be somewhat forgiving. But we know of all this today, so for us there is no excuse. In closing, I would like to thank Ian Hutchesson for his effort in translating the extracts of Garbini's 1997 work which he included in his recent posting to the ANE list and which touched on this topic. Even so, Ian, I hope I may respectfully note that the position which Garbini proposes (admittedly judged only by the extract you kindly provided us) appears in virtually every regard to be a direct copy of what Maspero had proposed in 1895. Accordingly, I regret to have to state that I find his argument wholly unconvincing. Thanks and welcome again to John Bimson, and best regards to all, Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:06:27 -0500 From: "James P. Allen" Subject: ane Cairo Congress URGENT -- Please post On behalf of the Organizing Committee of the Eighth International Congress of Egyptologists 31st January, 2000 EIGHTH INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS OF EGYPTOLOGISTS 28 March – 3 April 2000 We are obliged to announce a change in venue for the Eighth International Congress of Egyptologists. The sudden announcement of an African-European Presidential meeting at the Cairo International Conference Centre at the beginning of April means that this location is no longer available to us. Happily, THE MENA HOUSE OBEROI at the Pyramids has come to our rescue, and all the meetings of the Congress will now take place there. The dates have not changed. We apologize for the inconvenience that this will cause, but we are sure that the new venue will, in fact, be an enhancement. The Mena House has wonderful facilities and restaurants, expert staff and a beautiful garden. The Congress will now be held in the shadow of the most famous monument in Egypt. There are a certain number of guest rooms available in the Mena House, and there are many other hotel in the Giza area. Emeco Travel has details and will make bookings upon request. The third and final announcement of the Congress will be sent out shortly, to be followed by a more detailed programme of the schedule of papers to be published on the Internet. We understand that many delegates intend to pay the registration fee upon arrival in Cairo. Those who have not yet registered are requested to do so immediately with the Congress Office. This will ensure a place at the Congress and avoid disappointment. Zahi Hawass, Chairman of the Organizing Committee of the Eighth International Congress of Egyptologists ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 15:41:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= Ghembaza Subject: ane The Mitanni king Saustatar Dear Ms Harriet Martin and ane list members, I would like to have further information on the Mitanni king named Saustatar (if there is any ?). Indeed his name recalls for me the king Sesostris of the later historians. Could this name be related to Susa as well as the mythic Shaushka who could be his feminine consort ? I know nothing on the Mitanni history, but I understood from the Tell Brak digging datations that the king Sausatra had possibly reigned in the Old Babylonian period ? This name recalls also for me Atra Hasis the Babylonian heroe. It is one of my hypothesis that Kamose or Kames, ruler of the Egyptian 17th dynasty of Syrian origin (= the mythic Sesostris) could have founded Susa. Indeed E. Adams reported on this list a Persian tradition (from Mirkhond a 10th AD writer) that "Mahalaleel emigrated from Syria and founded Susa" the most ancient Persian city, a legend possible related with Judaeo-Islamic sources concerning the Seth-Kain stories. In my mind "Mahal" could mean for Meskal, avatar of Kames which gave Michel in french and Michaël in english (this antique heroe was christianized as St. Michaël killing the dragon, as Perseus the son of Danae from Argos = Epaphos son of Io = Kames the elder son of Ah-hotep, the daughter of Teti-scheri mother of the Greek Titans, the Syrian Hyksos in Egypt). One of the name of prince Kamose was Ouahm menou (the one who multiplies the monuments) what perhaps explains his surname of Memnon. Indeed Memnon was reputed have built several "Memnonia" in Susa and the region (Diodore, II, 22). I think I will receive many comments... I will take my shield, but keep cool as I am unarmed. Thérèse Ghembaza Paris, France ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:37 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Ecole Biblique Catalogue on CD-ROM Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From Hans van der Meij Catalogue de l'Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Francaise de Jerusalem Catalogue of the French Biblical and Archaeological School of Jerusalem On CD-ROM Project Description The Catalogue de l'Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Franaise (CEBAF) is the electronic edition of the card catalog database for the Ecole Biblique's library. It enables researchers to find comprehensive bibliographic information relating to Biblical and ancient Near Eastern studies, archaeology, and related disciplines quickly and accurately. The specialized focus and extensive holdings of the cole's library make the Catalogue a uniquely valuable resource for research and study. The richness and depth of the library collection and its detailed catalogue system has made the cole Biblique an unparalleled resource for biblical scholars and archaeologists from throughout the world. The collection consists of more than 115,000 volumes and 400 active journals specializing in biblical studies, Near Eastern archaeology and ancient Middle Eastern languages and literature. The Ecole's catalogue goes beyond author, title, and subject. It offers a complete, up-to-date bibliography of scholarly publications, both monographs and articles, in the above fields of study. Of special interest to biblical scholars are its subject headings of individual books, chapters and verses of the Bible. These in effect create in-depth bibliographies of particular passages and pericopes. A scholar interested in a particular verse will find an extensive working bibliography in just a few minutes. Since the electronic edition of the Catalogue derives from an original database structure, a number of features not normally exploited in the Logos Library System (LLS) have been incorporated for the sake of powerful searching. In particular, new LLS-languages have been defined for unique identifier codes representing authors, titles, topics, and so on. A detailed user's guide describes these features and shows how to use the Catalogue profitably. Future updates, containing the latest additions to the library's holdings, will be published at regular intervals. Logos Library Compatible Available May 2000 Prices Regular Subscription ISBN Individual license $ 299 $ 249 900411701 6 Institutional license 1-5 users $ 499 $ 449 900411737 7 6-10 users $ 699 $ 649 900411875 6 >10 users $ 899 $ 849 900411876 4 Sincerely, Hans van der Meij Senior Acquisitions Editor BRILL ACADEMIC PUBLISHERS http://www.brill.nl meij@brill.nl (office) hans@jvdmeij.demon.nl (home) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:39:09 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Th=E9r=E8se?= Ghembaza Subject: ane Dating Exodus Dear ane list members, In the dispute about the date of exodus, I want to explain you why I vote for the Hyksos expulsion, i.e. between 1540 and 1520 B.C. In my opinion, the double datation of late historians is due to the following confusion. The texts mention the city of Ramses and the son of the pharaoh who built this city. I think it could be useful to recall that Tell-el-Daba = Avaris the city of Apophis was not far from Qatna Quantir = Pi-Ramses. So if on the time of the first chronicle, the only known city was yet named Pi-Ramses, the site of Avaris become the city of Ramses, and Ahmose became Merenptah. Fortunately Manfred bietak allowed us to distinghuish that there were two well differenciated cities, each dating on two different periods... Moreover, I assume that Ahmose as the king of Exodus was really drowned in the Reed Sea but he was rescued and reanimated, and continued to reign on Egypt. (See The Coran sourate N°10, 90-92 and Diodore, I, 25, 5-6, "Isis discovered drugs that give immortality, by means of which she not only raised from the dead her son Horus who had been the object of plots on the parts of the Titans and had been found dead under the water giving him his soul again, but also made him immortal.") Hoping this could help, Thérèse Ghembaza Paris, France ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:08:04 -0600 From: "Charles E. Jones" Subject: ane Exhibition on Calendars Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom responses and inquiries should be directed. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: "Duhoux Yves" Exhibition on Calendars >From February 2nd to 19th 2000, an exhibition on calendars will take place in Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium). The calendars considered begin from the Antiquity (Babylonian, Egyptian, Etruscan, Greek, Jewish, Mycenaean, Roman, etc.) to more recent times ( Arabic, Armenian, Bahai, Chinese, Medieval, Persian, etc.). There will be about ten conferences about some calendrical problems. For more details, see the www site http://www.fltr.ucl.ac.be/FLTR/GLOR/expo3.htm. Yves Duhoux Département d'Études grecques, latines et orientales Faculté de Philosophie et Lettres Université Catholique de Louvain Place Pascal 1 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgique Téléphone et fax : 010/47 49 55 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:45:59 +1300 From: "Don Mills" Subject: Re: ane Exodus of 1540 BCE ? On Wednesday, February 02, 2000, Walter Mattfeld (to whom I apologise for two misspellings of his name in an earlier post) wrote, - ---------- | | The Pelest arrived ca. 1177 BCE, "they could not have been in place" to | prevent Israel's return from Egypt via the "way of the Philistines." | Obviously whoever wrote this account had not the foggiest notion of when the | Philisitines had arrived, because earlier in Genesis he has them "cutting | deals" with Abraham in the 3rd millenium in the Beersheba/Gerar vicinity ! A | real eyewitness to the Exodus, whether it was 1540, 1446 or 1250 BCE would | have no knowledge about Philistines, and there would accordingly be no | reason to make Israel travel south to the Red Sea and Mt. Sinai, to | eventually launch attacks into the Hebron hill country from Kadesh Barnea. | - ---------- As many on the list will realise, my sympathies lie with the chronological revisionists, and I wince at absolute statements such as "the Peleset arrived ca. 1177 BCE". That aside, however, I have to ask how certain is the equation of Ramses III's "PRST" with the Philistines? There has been some on-list discussion recently about modern rejection of older equations of names that looked attractive on phonological grounds, but which subsequently have become less certain. In the case of the PRST (I choose the "R" grapheme deliberately), there are, I believe, some phonological difficulties, one of which is the uncertain quantity of the second character. If in fact it represents an R, as in the case of the PRST (Persians) on the Canopus Decree, then the PRST were not the Philistines. (Actually, the Decree uses a double T, "PRSTT". This was a scribal affectation of the time. For example, the text also features KFTT for KFT, "Keftiu", so that PRSTT probably represents "PRST".) Does that make them the Persians? Apparently the same name, but a different time, so no go. But could the same not be said about R3's PRST = "Philistines"? With regard to the initial letter: if the proposed equation between Greek "Phoinix" and Egyptian "FNXW" is correct as designating "Phoenicians", it is possible that the Philistines, were they included in Egyptian records, might have been spelt FLST. Thirdly, it is my understanding (possibly incorrect) that final T had ceased to be pronounced by the time of Ramses III. If correct, this further reduces the correlation with "Philistine". This is not to prove that R3's PRST were *not* the Philistines. If they were not, of course, that leaves unanswered the question of who they actually were, but they would not be alone among the Peoples of the Sea in that regard. As for their settlement in "Palestine" following their defeat by R3 -- neither the Egyptians nor any other source records such an occurrence, and it is the Bible alone that tells us that "the five rulers of the Philistines [had] their seats at Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath, and Ekron" (Joshua 13:3). Of course, the Bible also tells us that the Philistines were present in the time of Abraham. If PRST=Philistines, this cannot be true (unless R3 is somehow relocated to the third millennium BCE!). On the other hand, what compelling evidence is there, besides the possible similarity of name, for an absolute conclusion that R3's PRST *were* the Philistines? Regards, Don Mills Wellington, New Zealand ==================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:53:47 -0800 (PST) From: John Wall Subject: Re: ane Dating Exodus Don't forget Judges 11:26 when dating the Exodus - combining the two references gives a date round about 1450BC. John Wall England - --- Thérèse Ghembaza wrote: > Dear ane list members, > > In the dispute about the date of exodus, I want to > explain you why I vote > for the Hyksos expulsion, i.e. between 1540 and 1520 > B.C. In my opinion, > the double datation of late historians is due to the > following confusion. > The texts mention the city of Ramses and the son of > the pharaoh who built > this city. I think it could be useful to recall that > Tell-el-Daba = Avaris > the city of Apophis was not far from Qatna Quantir = > Pi-Ramses. So if on > the time of the first chronicle, the only known city > was yet named > Pi-Ramses, the site of Avaris become the city of > Ramses, and Ahmose became > Merenptah. Fortunately Manfred bietak allowed us to > distinghuish that there > were two well differenciated cities, each dating on > two different periods... > Moreover, I assume that Ahmose as the king of > Exodus was really drowned in > the Reed Sea but he was rescued and reanimated, and > continued to reign on > Egypt. > (See The Coran sourate N°10, 90-92 and Diodore, I, > 25, 5-6, "Isis > discovered drugs that give immortality, by means of > which she not only > raised from the dead her son Horus who had been the > object of plots on the > parts of the Titans and had been found dead under > the water giving him his > soul again, but also made him immortal.") > Hoping this could help, > > > > > > Thérèse Ghembaza > Paris, France > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 02:07:07 +0100 From: Ian Hutchesson Subject: ane 1) Exodus Hyksos 2) Philistines For those entertaining an exodus being related to the Hyksos expulsion (I use "Hyksos" to mean not only the "aristocracy" but all the non-Egyptian people who participated in the Hyksos dominion), it would seem rather unlikely to me that the Hyksos had anything directly to do with what is narrated in the exodus tales. We know a number of details about the Hyksos that don't mesh with the Hebrew traditions. Consider: 1) The Hyksos brought a horse (and chariot) centred culture to Egypt, yet there is no sign of such a culture behind the Hebrew traditions. The Hyksos necessarily had substantial contact with an Indo-European culture prior to arrival in Egypt in order to gain expertise with horses. (It has been hypothesized that the Hyksos rulers were in fact Hurrian, though this would be strange given Semitic names such as Anat-Har and Ya`qub-Har.) 2) The Hyksos arrived in Egypt with substantial forces. 3) The Hyksos held absolute power in lower Egypt for over a hundred years, yet the Hebrew traditions depict only one figure who made it to any substantial power under the auspices of the reigning pharaoh. 4) The Hyksos culture, Redford characterizes analysing Bietak's work, was "wholly northern, Levantine inspiration." 5) The Hyksos left Egypt via the Mediterranean coastal strip, digging in their heels at Sharuhen -- not far from Gaza --, only to face several campaigns by Ahmoses, who succeeded in dislodging them and made way for an Egyptian domination of the zone up to the time of the arrival of the Philistines. (Interestingly though, cities such as Jericho did suffer destruction, probably -- according to the current archaeologists working at Jericho -- at the hands of the Hyksos. So despite Ahmoses's efforts there was a substantial force which survived the expulsion.) I should note that the Egyptians patrolled their borders assiduously for several generations after the expulsion, fearing the threat of a return of Asiatics. (This policing exercise slowly developed into straight-out empire building.) I therefore find it difficult to accept that "the foreign population... simply continued to live in the Eastern Delta." --------------------------------------- While it's not easy to accept Ramses III description of the war against the sea peoples -- it is almost certainly over-synthetic and the results obviously much more equivocal than his portrayal -- it was very difficult for an Egyptian ruler to slap up bare-faced lies for the knowing population to see. So, I can accept that he has shaped the information (just as Ramses II shaped the description of the battle of Qadesh), but there was clearly a kernel of fact behind it. The Philistines et al. stopped short of Egypt, leaving the greener pastures of Egypt, though the confederacy hadn't been stopped by Hatti, Cyprus, Arzawa, Kode, Karkamesh, or Ugarit. This points to a hard confrontation and the fact that the sea peoples' numbers were substantial. This means that any notion of the Peleset being "most likely 'the Northwest Semitic speaking majority among whom the [kaptorim] immigrant minority had settled'" flying in the face of the facts -- though such an idea of a foreign elite is found elsewhere. I do not doubt that there was Canaanite substratum within the new populations, but these new populations arrived and manifested themselves in the material culture, bringing a dramatic change in production. This material culture was not Canaanite. The town of Ekron was newly founded, ie there was a substance that could permit the founding of new cities. I don't understand the efforts to diminish the effect of the arrival of the sea peoples in Palestine. Ian Ian Hutchesson mc2499@mclink.it http://www.geocities.com/Paris/leftBank/5210/histreli.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 02:11:51 +0100 From: Ian Hutchesson Subject: Re: ane Exodus of 1540 BCE ? At 10.45 03/02/00 +1300, Don Mills wrote: >what >compelling evidence is there, besides the possible similarity of name, for >an absolute conclusion that R3's PRST *were* the Philistines? Context. Ian Ian Hutchesson mc2499@mclink.it http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/5210/histreli.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:10:25 +1100 From: "George Athas" Subject: Re: ane 1) Exodus Hyksos Subject: ane 1) Exodus Hyksos 2) Philistines > For those entertaining an exodus being related to the Hyksos expulsion (I > use "Hyksos" to mean not only the "aristocracy" but all the non-Egyptian > people who participated in the Hyksos dominion), it would seem rather > unlikely to me that the Hyksos had anything directly to do with what is > narrated in the exodus tales. We know a number of details about the Hyksos > that don't mesh with the Hebrew traditions. Consider: > [...] Ian, I think what some people are actually arguing is not that the Exodus was the equivalent of the Hyksos expulsion. As you point out, there are too many inconsistencies with that. I think what some people want to argue here is that the Hyksos explusion set in motion the memory of an event which, with the addition of time and legend, was eventually filtered down through the ages as the Exodus tradition, preserved by a small minority, but which later was accepted by a larger demographic as a national 'epic'. I'm not arguing for or againstl just trying to elucidate things a bit. Best regards, George Athas Dept of Semitic Studies, University of Sydney ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Tel Dan Inscription Website http://members.xoom.com/gathas/teldan.htm ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: < gathas@ mail.usyd.edu.au > ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V2000 #34 *************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html