From: owner-ane@ (ANE Digest) To: ane-digest Subject: ANE Digest V2000 #217 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ane@ Errors-To: owner-ane@ Precedence: bulk ANE Digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 217 RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article ane Re: The Gimbutas Paradigm RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article solar flare (was Re: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah.) ane Zedekiah's Cave in Jerusalem Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: Pyramid Function (was ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah). Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: solar flare (was Re: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah.) Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:23:10 +0200 From: Niels Peter Lemche Subject: RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article Well, it you take the numbers in Ezra for face value, it would have trippled the population of Judah according to most estimates. Of course, if you reduces it to 4,23 persons-one family-it cannot be traced. But I referred to Nehemiah not to Ezra, and do not think that Ezra is an old book-not at all. But that's because I think that old Torrey was absolutely right, and people will fall on me for that when I publish more about it-some day. -----Original Message----- From: Ruthy & Baruch [SMTP:alster@bezeqint.net] Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 06:34 To: Niels Peter Lemche; 'Liz Fried' Cc: ane@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Shalom NPL! You wrote: The HB/OT is > providing an image of the 5th century including massive immigration from > Mesopotamia that does not seem to concur with the situation in the province > at all the book of Ezra does not talk about massive immigration - Ez 2:64 talks about 42,360, with no stipulation (as in Numbers) that this excludes anyone. As far a numbers in the HB go, that's not a lot. Assuming the returnees went back to their old hometowns (Ez 2:1) in relatively small numbers, possibly settling mostly in what was left and not building, we're not dealing with any massive new settlement. -if not for the first chapters of Nehemiah according to which there > was nothing, no Jerusalem, no temple, no Jewish identity. Where does Nehemiah mention anything about lack of Jewish identity? And even Jerusalem seems to have had some population according to Neh 2:16-18, where Nehemiah seems to be talking to people living in Jerusalem (including priests etc.) Kol Tuv, Baruch Except of course that the same passage in Nehemiah states that Jerusalem is in ruins, and that Jerusalem must be rebuilt. It might be a hyperbole, some may be living in an unfortified settlement there-it is probably the plot at the opening of Nehemiah that they did. The chapters in Nehemiah use quite frequently Jehudim. In the light of the ethnicity discussion, does this mean Jews or people from the province of Judah? NPL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:06:20 -0500 From: "Mark Odegard" Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article On 30 Jul 00, at 7:34, Ruthy & Baruch wrote: > the book of Ezra does not talk about massive immigration Umm. Is there a web site that reconstructs Ezra- Nehemhiah as a single, smoothly-reading book? In English? With good notes? I was taught that Deuteronomy, essentially as we have it, was the book read at the Water Gate, making it simultaneously the most recent and most ancient of the five books (the other four plus Joshua got somewhat redacted later, as I was taught). Nehemiah 8:1 ff. - -- Mark Odegard laura@rconnect.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:10:42 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: ane Re: The Gimbutas Paradigm Listmembers, For more discussion [pro and con] on the Gimbuta's Paradigm see http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/fmuntean/POM5a3.html and the links following: http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/fmuntean/POM6a1.html kind regards, Randall Larsen University of Hawaii larsenr@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:50:40 -0400 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article Dear Neils Peter, > > > I am using Jehus/Judah-should probably be the opposite way > around-to include > both the Persian province of Jehud and the Iron Age territory known as > Judah. Yes, this is how I use it. I do not think that things were less complicated nor more in the > Jehud province than in Judah of the Iron Age. The change probably came > later, especially if O. Lipzitch (probably spelling his name wrongly) from > Tel Aviv University is right, because then there was no migration > 'back' to > Judah/Jehud before, say at the end of the 5th century or in the > 4th. Can I get a copy of his talk??? He gave > a lecture at the 2ICAANE (2 International Conference on the Archaeology of > the Ancient Near east) in Copenhagen in May, showing figures that > spoke of a > regress in settled areas after the Babylonian conquest of 68% landwide, > and-if I remember correctly-78% in the Jerusalem area. But no increase of > settlement in the 5th century, so no evidence of any migration of any > substantial number of Jews-in your sense people from Judah. The HB/OT is > providing an image of the 5th century including massive immigration from > Mesopotamia that does not seem to concur with the situation in > the province I find this interesting, and it fits with my impression of the biblical texts. The first chapters of Ezra, Ezra 1-6 (if you ignore the numbers) speaks of a small and very harried group of people living in Jerusalem. Haggai speaks of a small and impoverished group. Ezra 3:12 describes a temple smaller than the previous one. Then you have Nehemiah describing the forcible population of Jerusalem. > at all-if not for the first chapters of Nehemiah according to which there > was nothing, no Jerusalem, no temple, no Jewish identity. No, I'm sorry, I don't see this. Nehemiah came to rebuild a breach in the wall around Jerusalem, to rebuild the gates of the akra, the temple citadel, the birah, and to build his own house, the governor's house. Although it says in Maccabees? that Nehemiah built the temple, that is nowhere in Nehemiah's memoir. The temple is already built in the time of Darius I. Nehemiah had to > rebuild the city and populate it, not with immigrants from abroad but by > settling people from the villages surrounding Jerusalem. Yes, from the villages of Yehud. Why wouldn't these have been people of the golah? It seems odd to me that Nehemiah, being Nehemiah, wouldn't have wanted people from the golah, but I don't know. If the Nehemiah > source has anything to say about the situation, i.e. iif it is not a > fictional autobiography, it is about a situation in the province of Jehud, > when the people of God had not yet arrived, returned, showed up. No, I don't agree with this. I don't see this in Nehemiah at all. Forcible creation of cities or increasing the population of existing cities was a common way in the Persian period and later periods to create wealth. Taxes were paid in kind by the peasants, and these could not be shipped to Susa. They had to be turned into ingots of silver or into coin. For that you need a monitary wealth, and for that you need cities. CIties were the source of this type of wealth. This was simply Nehemiah's attempt to build up a bourgeois class. It does not imply there was no one living in the city prior to this. And I think we should say the people of YHWH. I think it is anachronistic to talk about God, with a capital G, in this period. YHWH was a god, like any other. Best, Liz > > NPL > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:58:57 -0400 From: "Liz Fried" Subject: RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article The change probably came > later, especially if O. Lipzitch (probably spelling his name wrongly) from > Tel Aviv University is right, because then there was no migration > 'back' to > Judah/Jehud before, say at the end of the 5th century or in the > 4th. > I forgot to say that I date Ezra (7-10) to the beginning of the 4th century and Artaxerxes II (404-359). The seventh year of this Artaxerxes is 397. Liz > > NPL > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:11:01 -0600 From: "Bruce Rabe" <73766.637@compuserve.com> Subject: solar flare (was Re: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah.) If the "wings of the Divine Falcon" are associated with solar eclipses, they are more likely to be the solar corona than solar flares or solar prominences. Flares are short duration events, don't project very far above the Sun's surface, and would be very difficult to see against the bright inner corona and chromosphere. Prominences are longer duration; while they're potentially visible naked eye, it would be a rare occurence. I've been to four solar eclipses and haven't seen a naked eye prominence yet. The corona is always easily visible during an eclipse. During the active part of the solar cycle, the corona is elongated in the Sun's equatorial plane for several solar diameters and could easily be interpreted as a pair of wings. An undisputed ancient observation of a winglike corona would be of great interest to astronomers, because it would establish a date for solar maximum. Bruce Rabe Broomfield CO USA 73766.637@compuserve.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Larsen" To: Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 10:21 AM Subject: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah. > snip > The wings of the Divine Falcon are the Solar flares that are visible when > the Sun is in total eclipse. > snip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:12:05 -0700 From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: ane Zedekiah's Cave in Jerusalem Hi, I'm trying to track down the name of the British firm that originally surveyed "Zedekiah's Cave" in Jerusalem. I was told they still had blueprints of the cave available. Does anyone here know where I should start? Also, is the Palestinian Exploration Fund still operating from London and if so do they have a web site or does anyone know their phone number? Thanks for any information. Andrew Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:07:53 +0300 From: Naccache Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article On Sat, 29 Jul 2000, Charles David Isbell wrote: >Dear Albert, >With all due respect, your adjective pitiful seems a bit melodramatic. Most profuse apologies. I'll wear sackcloth if someone can tell me what kind of fabric that is. Now that Peter Daniels is holding the fort, I can go sailing my mind at ease. Meanwhile, let me leave you on a good quote: "The first step in wisdom is to know the things themselves; this notion consists in having a true idea of the objects; objects are distinguished and known by classifying them methodically and giving them appropriate names. Therefore, classification and name-giving will be the foundation of our science." Linnaeus, obs. 10 Albert the aspiring Poseidoniast Beirut, Lebanon anaccash@nidal.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:36:11 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: Re: Pyramid Function (was ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah). John Deaton and Listmembers, According to Derchain "The meeting of Re and Osiris in their astral aspects shows that the throne chamber was consecrated to rites related to the cycles of the moon and the sun (Le Papyrus Salt,I,88)." Gunn adds that strictly speaking it is not the cycles of the sun itself but the various aspects of the disk of the sun [presumably aspects experienced during a solar eclipse] which are enacted. (JEA 9:168ff.). It seems clear that to translate Egyptian texts or to understand the significance of Egyptian Monuments such as the Pyramid one must have an inkling of what Egyptian Religion was all about. Erman wrote, "Religion is the Schmerzkind of Egyptology, for half a century I have wrestled with it, and how little certainty has come out of it all.....whatever we come up with is wrong; because the task is simply insoluble.I have never been able to escape the verdict." (A. Erman, Mein Warden u. Wirken, pp. 279, 285) Professor Derchain suggests that one learns to "think Egyptian" by cultivating "an infinite naivete, a massive shedding of one's own intellectual habits" by "imagining to one's self how an Egyptian would react." (P. Derchain, in Chronique d' Egypte, 44:79, 82.) Derchain, Gunn and others have established that the rites of the "throne chamber" of the Egyptian temple were connected "with the cycles of the sun and moon." The intent of Egyptian Temple rituals appears to be for the King to see himself progressing in light as do the heavenly bodies the stars, the moon, and the sun. If the King is already dead his initiatory work may be performed vicariously. The King may be represented by his mummy or by his statue for the purpose of these ordinances. First the King imitates Osiris as Orion, ascending with Orion from the eastern region and descending regularly into the western region. [PT 442, PT571] /1 Second the King imitates Osiris as the waxing moon. The king goes from the dead Osiris-- new moon-- to the infant Horus-- crescent moon-- to the complete Horus Eye or Full Moon. Thoth represents the waxing moon as in CT 156. [PT 210, PT 620,]. See R.A. Parker's footnotes to Excursus A in The Calendars of Ancient Egypt (University of Chicago Press 1950)(word for word quote): **** [Text page 60:] Now the calendar of Edfu has the following entry after Choiak 28: [hieroglyphs] "The feast of iht hr h3wt (the fifth lunar day). Performing his rites." If Choiak is the fifth lunar day, the Choiak 24 is psDntyw. If we refer this to the Dendera text, the underlying symbolism is immediately apparent. The dead Osiris is the vanished moon. His day of embalment is the day when the moon is never visible. But on the following day, Choiak 25, he shines forth from his temple at sunset, just as the crescent moon normally appears on the second day of the lunar month at sunset. If this be the ressurection of Osiris, which it certainly seems to be, since he wakes from his sleep and takes his place in the sky, then it is small wonder that Horus, son of Osiris, is born on the same lunar day on which his father is reborn. The better known version of he Osiris myth has, to be sure, his embalment on the 24th and his burial does not take place until the 30th. It is not my intention to pursue this fascinating topic any further in these pages [does he elsewhere?-rl]. It is clear, however, that, while the relation between Osiris and the moon has been known for some time, not all the ramifications of this relationship have as yet been explored. Nor has the connection between Horus and the moon been suspected {!!!-rl}.[to footnote 23.] [Note 23--verbatim] It is my belief that the whole character of Egyptian Kingship in its transmission from father to son will be found to have, ultimately, a lunar explanation. The dying Horus is the waning moon. Horus dead becomes Osiris and the moon is invisible. The new crescent is the symbol both of the reborn Osiris as king of he dead and of his son and successor Horus as king of the living. The ceremony of Sed is also understandable on a lunar basis. The king normally celebrated it for the first time in his 30th year. The 29 years he reigned may be compared to the 29 days of the lunar month from the day of new crescent, the second day to day 30. Like the moon the king, Horus of the living, has run his course. IN his 30th year, psDntyw he dies and is reborn as the youthful Horus, the crescent moon strong and vigorous. (Note 23 page 80.) Note 24 This [the six day festival] is in itself an indication of a lunar origin. On the importance of the first six days of the lunar month as being the six parts of the eye of Horus, cf. H. Junker,"Die sech Teile de Horusauges der Sechste Tag" ZAS XLvIII (1910), 101-6." [ Compare this to the Piankoff/Levy-Bruhl notion of six stages of death and rebirth (disputed by Lorton) [p. 22, Shrines of Tut-Ankh-Amon, 1955]]. ***** Third the initiate imitates the course of the sun through the heavens, suffering the same vississitudes as the Sun in its solar eclipse thence rising up triumphantly to circumambulate the lion bed throne. [PT267, PT257, PT 619, PT 483, PT612, PT 273, ]: The king shines anew in the east [PT257]. I go round the sky like Re [PT210]. I give judgment in the heavens between the two contestants [Horus and Seth], for my power is the power of the Eye of Tbi, my strength is the strength of the eye of tbi. [PT 254 (Eye of tbi is the sun according to Sethe note 29)]. For tbj the wb has moebel or furniture possibly refering to the three thrones used by the king in his ascension, rebirth, and resurrection: the cow throne, the hippo throne, and the lion couch. [wb 5, 261.11, Piankoff, Shrines p. 36] Thus I draw a connection between the Sed Festival accounts and the Pyramid relief depictions of the arrested sacrifice of the king at Opet. With his arrested sacrifice in the throne chamber of the Pyramid temple the King imitates the Solar ecllipse of the sun. Having suffered as the Sun, the King claims the power and strength of the Sun. There is a common prop in both the Sed festival and the Pyramid text descriptions. The common prop is the sceptre and the common ritual action is circumambulation. I claim the sceptre has its antecedent in the branch of greenery that was waived by the ancient Pharoah as he circumambulated the fields in his office as rainmaker and cloud dispeller. PT 351: ...If you [the cow Hathor] are green, then will the King be green, just as a living rush [the reed sceptre-rl] is green Pyramid Text 273-4: ...He has circumambulated the Two Lands [Egypt] For the King is a great power...[the king also circumambulates in the Sed Festival -rl]. PT 317: I make green [all] the vegetation [that extends] to the land (idb) of the Horizon (text and alternate translation in Sethe, Komm. ii, 357 see also Faulkner) Pyramid Text 511: ...The sky thunders for me, the earth quakes for me, the hailstorm is burst apart for me...I will receive the offering stone and dedicate the altar.[by ritual circumambulation?] ..I will smite with the sceptre and rule with the staff...(Faulkner) See also PT 519: I smite with the sceptre, I rule with my staff, and I lead the servants of Re. Pour Cold water, O earth....[a poured offering-an attempt at sympathetic magic to bring rain -rl]. [the magic succeeds]... The p-t - land is filled with water.... who make green the Nt-crowns of the canals...(Faulkner) See PT 559: ...The fields are filled for you, the banks are inundated for you as a boon which the King grants...(Faulkner). Another function of the sceptre is to summon the gods. A picture of this is conveyed by PT utterance 509: I sit on this iron throne of mine, the faces of which are those of lions, and its feet are those of the Great Wild Bull....my Papyrus shaped sceptre in my hand. I will lift up my hand [the swaying of sceptre -rl] to the sun-folk, and the gods will come bowing. [For a similar passage see PT 582] (Faulkner). The sceptre here also represents the marked Arrow of the King by which he exerted his rule over men and animals. I assert that the sceptre is also represented by the dd pillar. By personally placing his branch or Arrow (the dd pillar) at a Hierocentric point (see Burrows) the king asserts his universal rule Landmarks and boundary stones served the same function to mark the king's universal rule. I infer that the third part of the sed Festival-- the public sham battle between the inhabitants of Pe and Dep noted by Bleeker (p. 102-103)--is a repetition of the interior rites in which the king on the Lion couch in the interior of the Pyramid temple is overcome and weakened by his adversary Seth but rises triumphantly to circumambulate the altar. The sham battle is mentioned in the pyramid texts at PT 356, 357 where the gods help the King in his battle against Seth. Numerous texts record the "rising up" of the King and the quadrilateral (four times) washing. May we infer that the Mortuary Pyramid Complex serves a related function to the Egyptian temple. In a previous post to EEF I noted the following: The connection between the pyramydion and "my mistress" I speculate relates to the role of the pyramydion as the first point penetrated by the light of the rising sun. Bleeker writes: **** A profound symbolism has been incorporated into the architecture of the Pyramids ...the mound of creation is also the sign of tiumph over death. It embodies the idea that the Pharoah might participate in the ressurection of the sungod. *** There is a tie in here with the sarcophagus. Lefebure suggests that Pharoah' climb to the top of the Pyramid "symbolized his emergence from chaos and darkness, at the same time separating Nut from Geb to provide space between Heaven and Earth"(G. Lefebure, An Serv. 23:66 paraphrase]. Here the idea is one of penetration. The light penetrates the pyramid making the Pyramid female. At the same time the pyramid or obelisk is a "petrified sun beam" making it a kenning for the male member. Union with the disk is put in the context of a sexual union. One is also reminded that in the primeval rites at Abydos it is Shu (the god of light) who bridges the gap between heaven and earth (Sethe, _Unters_, V, 3,26). "All space was thought to come together at the binding point of his temple, encircled by eight tent shrines marking the major points of the compass and facing the central shrine (C. J. Goyon, _Kemi_ ,6:23) This eight tent shrines according to Gaster were "median huts" used to observe the Solstices. [Thespis, p. 39 see also Reeder, KMT 4:4]. I will try to take some time to come up with some philological arguments to supporrt these ideas. My musings on tb/Tb/tbi are an example of the type of philological argument that can be brought to bear on the question of the function of various rooms in the Egyptian Temple [in this case the central shrine]. Another example is my conjecture that the pun between mr= pyramid and mr= sick is intended. Thus the pyramid is used to assess the health (or season) of the Sun. An author points out an interesting passage in the Coffin Texts: *** I set up the columns to mark the Solstice at the temple of Atum. I placed the male serpent (n'w) atop the column of Shw, in the place in which Atum placed the female serpent ('nw.ty), when Sia was coming forth, praised as this NN in the disk of Aten. (CT 79, II, 26 De Buck). [I speculate that the meaning of the entwined serpents is the union of opposites or the separation of opposites i.e broken symmetry] You might also take a look at some vignettes and inscriptions reproduced in Lanzone's Dit. Myth Egy most notable is CCXI. Here the idea is the penetration of light into the depths of the pyramid to illuminate the mummy. The perfect Osiris sits in his booth on top of the pyramid backed up by his consorts Isis and Nepthys. Cimbing the 12 steps of the pyramid (a lunar motif?) _penetrating_ a serpent veil guarded by Sia the god of wisdom the Pharoah enjoys 3 degrees: glory in heaven in the presence of Ra, power on earth in the presence of Geb, and victory in the mortal (hrt-ntr) worlds.[book of breathings #54;1-4, #102]. The Pharoah in order to penetrate the mound of creation and at the same time to climb to the heights of the Pyramidion must pass a series of obstacles and tests. This has been discussed previously in connection with the thicket of reeds in PT 267 and the Double Lion sentinel in CT 312. The Terrance Nevin speculation that the pyramid was a Solar observatory remains to be conclusively demonstated. The conjecture is interesting in light of the above understanding that the Pyramid stands for the rays of the sun on which the king hopes to ascend to the heavens upon his death. More information on Nevin's unsubstantiated speculations are available at: http://www.aloha.net/~hawmtn/pyramid.htm scroll down towards the bottom of the page and you will see the pyramid with two suns illustrated. On the Pyramid as _mr_ see Faulkner's concise dictionary at p. 111. For mr as sick see p.111 as well. As you point out _mr_ may mean canal. In the context of the pyramid, the pyramid is the winding waterway [ladder] that leads to the heavens. Ascension is a reward [tb] which the King may not undertake until he has _mr_ =hacke or hoe'd the row appointed to him for this life [wb 2, 98.11]. The Judgment in the heavens is visualized as a harvest of wheat. _mr_ as binden or anbinden reminds one of the binding of the sheaves at harvest time this is depicted in a number of Egyptian reliefs. The ritual cutting of the sheafs is shown in the a relief of Ramses III at the Feast of Min [Oriental Institute Museum]. The crescent shaped sickel reminds us of the crescent Horus moon. _mr_binden also means "link" which reminds us of _The Temple the meeting place of Heaven and Earth_ [J. Lundquist]. It also reminds us of the King's hope to be reunired with his Family in the heavens. _mr_ is seen as vorgesetzer = disciplinarian [wb 2, 94. 11-16] this undoubtably refers to the oaths and penalties taken at the Pyramid temple. _mr_ is weberei[n] weaving mill perhaps refering to the ancient woven sed festival cloak.[wb 2, 97.2] with which the King is clothed to renew his kingly power. _mr_is viehweide or pasture reminding us of the king's duty to make green.[wb, 2, 97.14-15]. A pasture is also where mr=f.waw.t the cow Hathor/Gbez is found. [WCN 500545]. The pun between Hathor and the verb to strike reminds us that the pyramid is where the king regains his "striking" power. _mr_ as Hacke or hoe goes along with the king's role as cultivator of the earthly garden [wb 2, 98.11] _mr_ as "sterben" to die reminds us of the arrested sacrifice of the king as the sun. [wb 2, 180, lemma 8]. There is more but this should suffice for the present. One is reminded that a single Egyptian word carries with it a vast mythological baggage. On Pyramidion as -_bnbn.t_ see Faulkner p. 82. I look forward to reading Deaton's articles on the function of the pyramid. The exchange of ideas is the best way to avoid error. 1/ Kurt Sethe's edition of the source hieroglyphic texts for the Pyramid texts are available online at: http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1553.A1_1908 The standard translation is R.O.Faulkner, London: Aris and Phillips, 1969. kind regards, Randall Larsen University of Hawaii larsenr@hawaii.edu - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Pyramid Function (was ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah). > In a message dated 7/30/004:31:46 AM !!!First Boot!!!, rlars@aloha.net > writes: > Dear Randall Larsen: > I have read your post on "tb" and it is obvious that you have put a great > amount of your time in your reading. But I have been unable to convince > myself that your solution for the function of the pyramid shape is the > correct one. Admittedly I am prejudice due to my believe in my own theory. > You stated: > > > > An astronomer email acquaintence of mine claims that the limestone facing > of > > the Great Pyramid of Giza could be used as a "Solar Telescope." > Since the pyramids were part of the tombs and cenotaphs of ancient Egyptians, > it would seem to me that they would have had a mortuary function or > symbolism. What is the name of this astronomer? > > > > According to Terrance Nevin: [who is he?] > > > > ...-- it's name betrays it's secret, pyro--middle [pyramid]--- fire in the > > middle --- > The etymology of the term pyramid is debated but it is Greek not Egyptian. > > the sun reflecting off the highly polished south face (that it > > was polished is well documented and remember the faces were indented) thus: > correct > > > The pyramid [mr] was possibly used to observe when the sun was "sick [mr]" > My personal opinion is that "mr" [using a chisel sign] with the pyramid > determinative and the term "mr" [hoe sign] with a canal determinative are > basically the same. It means a "group work project that was hard work." Not > unlike "hoeing the earth." > > Sincerely yours, > John C. Deaton. > > Ps. If anyone is interested in my theory for the pyramid shape, they can > found it in my following articles, (obtainable by interlibrary loans): > 1) "The Old Kingdom Evidence for the Function of Pyramids" > Varia Aegyptiaca, Volume IV, (1988, San Antonio) pp 193-200. > Errata: footnote no. 4, should read page 147 and not 188. > 2) "The Post Old Kingdom Evidence for the Function of Pyramids" > Varia Aegyptiaca, Volume V, (1989, San Antonio) pp 183-188. Randall Larsen University of Hawaii larsenr@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:52:37 EDT From: Virgbrown1@aol.com Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Albert, << Most profuse apologies. I'll wear sackcloth if someone can tell me what kind of fabric that is. Now that Peter Daniels is holding the fort, I can go sailing my mind at ease. Meanwhile, let me leave you on a good quote: "The first step in wisdom is to know the things themselves; this notion consists in having a true idea of the objects; objects are distinguished and known by classifying them methodically and giving them appropriate names. Therefore, classification and name-giving will be the foundation of our science." Linnaeus, obs. 10 >> But of course. Let's imagine that there is a bowl with 25 rocks in it of various colors, shapes, and sizes. Already there are three categories into which one may divide the "objects." Then the questions arise as to whether a certain rock fits the category to which it is ascribed rather than another. Virgil Brown White Oak, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:57:45 EDT From: Virgbrown1@aol.com Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Peter, In a message dated 07/29/2000 4:53:29 PM Central Daylight Time, grammatim@worldnet.att.net writes: << Reply-to: grammatim@worldnet.att.net (Peter T. Daniels) To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu In contemporary English, "Jew(ish)" isn't an ethnicity word, it's a religion word. The people of Judah weren't Jews, they were Judahites or Judeans. >> May I differ. The first dictionary that I popped off the shelves offered two defini-tions of "Jew." The second was that a "Jew" was a descendent of the Hebrew people. One might argue about the factuality of that statement, but the editors of the dictionary do understand "Jew" to sometimes have ethnic implications. Virgil Brown White Oak, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:02:14 EDT From: Virgbrown1@aol.com Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article NPL, << Let this exchane be the last one for the moment, but it might be of interest also to people in other parts of the ANE. Did all the people from Jehud/Juda share the opinion that they constituted the people of God, the one that is in phocus in the HB/OT? Playing with words is that the name might be the same, a person from Jehud/Judah, but the meaning very different if you were part of that 'society' of God or just lived there. >> Why do you introduce the term "people of God" at this point? Do you think that it is always equivalent to "Israel" or "the sons of Abraham" or whatever? Does not this term also suffer semantic shift? Virgil Brown White Oak, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:57:06 -0400 From: irene riegner Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article I think I'm entering this debate in the middle, but.... Who are these "people of god?" According to my concordance, the term "people of god" only occurs twice in HB: In Judges 20.3 and in 2 Sam 14.13. "People of Yahweh" occurs 9 times: In Num 11.29, 17.6, Judges 5.11, 2 Sam 1.12, 6.21, 2 Kings 9.6, Ezek 36.20, Zeph 2.16. Over half of the occurrences are in the Deuteronomic writings. In Num11.29 and 17.6, the phrase seems to indicate possession rather than a designation for a group of people. In other words, this is the nomenclature, the name that Israel uses to identify herself. This is a name that others have coined to refer to Israel and Judah---and I have read this term only in Christian-oriented texts. These are "Israelites" and "Judeans," and later they are Jews. Is there a problem with using these terms, with identifying them with real people and real locations rather than trying to spiritualize away their identity? People of Yahweh might be a more accurate designation for the small group of Israelites and Judeans who accepted Yahweh as the major deity since other ancient peoples, I think, were also identified by their deity. By using the term "people of god" as a reference for Israelites and Judeans, the writer assumes that the entire population, Israelites and Judeans, accepted this deity as its deity, but, as we know from the biblical texts, this was not so. The classical prophets were constantly haranguing the people about Yahweh, returning to Yahweh, obeying Yahweh, etc, indicating that Yahweh, or at least the prophetic understanding of Yahweh, was not the same as that of the rest of the population. "People of god" is certainly an inaccurate designation of for the population of Israel and Judah. A similar problem with nomenclature occurs with the Dead Sea community. We usually call them "Essenes," but this is our designation not there's. They had other names. iriegner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 23:18:47 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: Re: solar flare (was Re: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah.) Bruce Rabe and Listmembers, Bruce Rabe writes: If the "wings of the Divine Falcon" are associated with solar eclipses, they > are more likely to be the solar corona than solar flares or solar > prominences. [snipped] > The corona is always easily visible during an eclipse. During the active > part of the solar cycle, the corona is elongated in the Sun's equatorial > plane for several solar diameters and could easily be interpreted as a pair > of wings. An undisputed ancient observation of a winglike corona would be of > great interest to astronomers, because it would establish a date for solar > maximum. I did intend to write solar corona. Yes I believe I have seen pictures of an elongated corona. You are correct to note that solar prominences normally would NOT be visible. There is also the possibility that the wings seen have something to do with the "diamond ring effect" Take a look at Jane Sellers book Death of the Gods E matter edition figure 26 Harpoon or Thunderbolt. It shows line above the sun--making the sun look like a shen symbol with an extended line above the circle or wings. The photo was taken by Sellers June 11, 1983. The effect does not look like it is due to lens flare since the characteristic multiple images are missing. I don't agree with everything Sellers has written. She has advocated a solar eclipse in the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, and Book of the Dead for some time. She has missed some of the more interesting passages however. A teaser for her book is at: http://www.egyptian-eclipses.com/eclipse/ I ordered the downloadable e-matter edition containing the illustration refered to. While I disagree with many of Seller's interpretations of the texts, I am glad to see that there are others who see solar eclipses mention in the Pyramid Texts. Sellers largely misses the significance of the solar eclipse to the initiation rites of the Throne chamber. She is on the trail of some interesting things. I need to follow up on some of her hypotheses and to reconcile those hypotheses with my own. I had had a few brief email exchanges with Sellers. She has yet to react to the material I sent on the rites of the throne chamber. kind regards, Randall Larsen University of Hawaii larsenr@hawaii.edu - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Rabe <73766.637@compuserve.com> To: Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 6:11 AM Subject: solar flare (was Re: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah.) > If the "wings of the Divine Falcon" are associated with solar eclipses, they > are more likely to be the solar corona than solar flares or solar > prominences. Flares are short duration events, don't project very far above > the Sun's surface, and would be very difficult to see against the bright > inner corona and chromosphere. Prominences are longer duration; while > they're potentially visible naked eye, it would be a rare occurence. I've > been to four solar eclipses and haven't seen a naked eye prominence yet. > > The corona is always easily visible during an eclipse. During the active > part of the solar cycle, the corona is elongated in the Sun's equatorial > plane for several solar diameters and could easily be interpreted as a pair > of wings. An undisputed ancient observation of a winglike corona would be of > great interest to astronomers, because it would establish a date for solar > maximum. > > Bruce Rabe > Broomfield CO USA > 73766.637@compuserve.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randall Larsen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 10:21 AM > Subject: ane Re: more on "tb" , tebah. > > > > snip > > The wings of the Divine Falcon are the Solar flares that are visible when > > the Sun is in total eclipse. > > snip > > Randall Larsen University of Hawaii larsenr@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:38:31 +0300 (IDT) From: avigdor horovitz Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Dear Irene, I don't want to get involved in this debate, but I must poihnt out that your use of the concordance here is a bit sloppy, and reminds me of some undergrad students. YOu have looked only at the terms am elohim or am YHWH, and have therefore come up with so few occurences. Were you to look at the concept expressed by use of am in other forms such as "Exodus 3: 2, 7, 10; 5, 1, where YHWH refers to Israel as "MY am" or plkaces which refer to Israel as YOUR (YHWH"s) am, etc you'd find scores of references to the people of Israel being referred to as YHWH's am. Victor Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz Dept. of Bible and Ancient Near East Ben Gurion University Beer Sheva, ISRAEL tel. 972-7-646-1036 fax 972-7-647-2913 On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, irene riegner wrote: > I think I'm entering this debate in the middle, but.... > > Who are these "people of god?" > > According to my concordance, the term "people of god" only occurs > twice in HB: In Judges 20.3 and in 2 Sam 14.13. "People of > Yahweh" occurs 9 times: In Num 11.29, 17.6, Judges 5.11, 2 Sam > 1.12, 6.21, 2 Kings 9.6, Ezek 36.20, Zeph 2.16. Over half of > the occurrences are in the Deuteronomic writings. In Num11.29 > and 17.6, the phrase seems to indicate possession rather than a > designation for a group of people. In other words, this is not b> the nomenclature, the name that Israel uses to identify > herself. This is a name that others have coined to refer to > Israel and Judah---and I have read this term only in > Christian-oriented texts. These are "Israelites" and "Judeans," > and later they are Jews. Is there a problem with using these > terms, with identifying them with real people and real locations > rather than trying to spiritualize away their identity? > > People of Yahweh might be a more accurate designation for the > small group of Israelites and Judeans who accepted Yahweh as the > major deity since other ancient peoples, I think, were also > identified by their deity. > > By using the term "people of god" as a reference for Israelites > and Judeans, the writer assumes that the entire population, > Israelites and Judeans, accepted this deity as its deity, but, as > we know from the biblical texts, this was not so. The classical > prophets were constantly haranguing the people about Yahweh, > returning to Yahweh, obeying Yahweh, etc, indicating that Yahweh, > or at least the prophetic understanding of Yahweh, was not the > same as that of the rest of the population. "People of god" is > certainly an inaccurate designation of for the population of > Israel and Judah. > > A similar problem with nomenclature occurs with the Dead Sea > community. We usually call them "Essenes," but this is our > designation not there's. They had other names. > > iriegner > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:54:41 +1300 From: B.E.Colless@massey.ac.nz Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article Albert the aspiring Poseidoniast (Beirut, Lebanon, anaccash@nidal.com) has recently repented in dust and ashes >Most profuse apologies. I'll wear sackcloth if someone can tell me what >kind of fabric that is. I was told by one of my Hebrew teachers that SACK, as in sack-cloth, was one of the words that survived the confusion of the Tower of Babel; it is widely attested in world languages, and it means the rough stuff ("rough as bags") you put on to assist your grieving. >Now that Peter Daniels is holding the fort, I can go sailing my mind at >ease. Meanwhile, let me leave you on a good quote: > >"The first step in wisdom is to know the things themselves; this notion >consists in having a true idea of the objects; objects are distinguished >and known by classifying them methodically and giving them appropriate >names. Therefore, classification and name-giving will be the foundation of >our science." >Linnaeus, obs. 10 Ave, Albertus Magnus, What is your colleague Linnaeus saying? Categorizing is the name of the science game? Well,that is what we see our most ancient ancients doing: giving everybody and everything a name; otherwise the object has no existence! (cp. Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth, opening lines). And that is what I do in phenomenology of religion. Is it still legitimate to set up general categories of religious phenomena, such as RITES and SCRIPTURES, and find examples of them, and set up sub-categories to cover the variety of the data? And as long as you take the differences and the uniquenesses into account, and refrain from value-judgements (like "a barbaric custom, a primitive practice") everything is OK. Right? I thought the recent discussions on race were intimating (or intimidating) that this is a bad approach. And it is all right for Gary Rendsburg to categorize types of Biblical scholars? After all: Every boy and every gal, who is born into this world alive, is either a little liberal, or else a little conservative. (WSG) Vale (meaning: go to the Vale of Sorrows and flagellate yourself further; but only if you want to). Bian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:57:14 +0300 From: Naccache Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, B.E.Colless wrote: >Albert the aspiring Poseidoniast (Beirut, Lebanon, anaccash@nidal.com) >has recently repented in dust and ashes I haven't really really repented, I was just being melodramatic ;p >>Most profuse apologies. I'll wear sackcloth if someone can tell me what >>kind of fabric that is. > >I was told by one of my Hebrew teachers that SACK, as in sack-cloth, was >one of the words that survived the confusion of the Tower of Babel; it is >widely attested in world languages, and it means the rough stuff ("rough as >bags") you put on to assist your grieving. Which is just another teacher's way of saying "I don't know." >Ave, Albertus Magnus, Ave to that! :-)) >What is your colleague Linnaeus saying? Categorizing is the name of the >science game? >..... >I thought the recent discussions on race were intimating (or intimidating) >that this is a bad approach. Dear Brian, you are of course pointing to a real problem. I unfortunately do not have the time to answer properly. I am not saying that we should stop in our reflection at Linnaeus stage, however, it is a good thing, as a starting point, not to confuse things unnecessarily... >Vale (meaning: go to the Vale of Sorrows and flagellate yourself further; >but only if you want to). Just checked the weather forecast (wonderful internet, see www.goldcoastwx.com) and it seems that Yam/Poseidon will be kind and gentle (of course, there is always Shamash, who will try to fry what's left of the brain, but this is how it goes, if you are dumb enough to sail in August in the Eastern Med). Captain Chickenheart Beirut, Lebanon anaccash@nidal.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:19:21 +0200 From: Niels Peter Lemche Subject: RE: ane Rendsburg McGill article Dear Virgil, To the insider, it was a reference to the very long chapter on ethnicity in my The Israelites in History and Tradition. There you will find reasons and answers. NPL -----Original Message----- From: Virgbrown1@aol.com [SMTP:Virgbrown1@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 03:02 To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: Re: ane Rendsburg McGill article NPL, << Let this exchane be the last one for the moment, but it might be of interest also to people in other parts of the ANE. Did all the people from Jehud/Juda share the opinion that they constituted the people of God, the one that is in phocus in the HB/OT? Playing with words is that the name might be the same, a person from Jehud/Judah, but the meaning very different if you were part of that 'society' of God or just lived there. >> Why do you introduce the term "people of God" at this point? Do you think that it is always equivalent to "Israel" or "the sons of Abraham" or whatever? Does not this term also suffer semantic shift? Virgil Brown White Oak, Texas ------------------------------ End of ANE Digest V2000 #217 **************************** Back issues are available on the Oriental Institute World-Wide Web (WWW) site at: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/OI_ANE.html