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ANE Digest          Sunday, March 11 2001          Volume 2001 : Number 066



Re: ane Early Yahwism 
Re: ane Early Yahwism 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:48:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ane Early Yahwism 

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Jim Thorn wrote:

     "I agree with you that the religious practices of Israel and Judah appear to have varied both dichronously and synchronously, and that no one term will capture the situation times or places..."

     It is always pleasant to have a meeting of the minds.

     "But then why do you dismiss suggestions of monolatry or henotheism?"

     I oppose them only to the extent that they are used as a generalization encompassing the whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Israel. Ancient strands of aniconic, jealous Yahwism may well have persisted throughout.

     Now to amplify some more specific points: "In any event," Jim Thorn wrote, "the real point is that Mesha references both his own Moabite deitis and (at least) YHWH. That seems to point toward henotheism. For a corresponding example from Israel, I recollect that in Judges Jephthah tells the Moabites, "Why don't you stick to the land your god, Chemosh, gave you, and get your mitts off the land our god, YHWH gave us?"

(Interestingly, Jephthah addressed his comments to the Amonites - u.h.)

     Moabite deities, as practically all others in the ANE, accepted and tolerated other deities; sometimes there were misunderstandings in the pantheon that involved murder, fraticide, etc. but the existence of other gods was taken for granted. That is one sharp difference between Yahwism and other religious systems of that era: Yahweh is intolerant of other gods.

     Was there worship of other gods? No difinitive answer from extra-biblical sources is available (excluding Kunteilat Ajrud and Kh. el-Qum). From material findings in AI II one cannot draw firm conclusions. What for instance is the meaning of the hundreds of female figurines - do they represent Canaanite goddesses of fertility or did they function simply as talismans, how to interpret the fact that not a single male figurine or figure was found from that period (Yahweh sternly forbids physical representations of himself.) To whom were offerings made in horned altars, either monumental, or those employed for domestic use.

     Both Jim Thorn and Kurt Noll base their arguments on examples from the HB. I deduct - perhaps too hastily - that they regard narratives in Judges and Samuel as providing real historical backgrounds to events they depict.

     Best wishes,

     Uri Hurwitz 

 



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<P>Jim Thorn wrote:</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "I agree with you that the religious practices of Israel and Judah appear to have varied both dichronously and synchronously, and that no one term will capture the situation times or places..."</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is always pleasant to have a meeting of the minds.</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "But then why do you dismiss suggestions of monolatry or henotheism?"</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I oppose them only to the extent that they are used as a generalization encompassing the whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Israel. Ancient strands of aniconic, jealous Yahwism may well have persisted throughout.</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now to amplify some more specific points: "In any event," Jim Thorn wrote, "the real point is that Mesha references both his own Moabite deitis and (at least) YHWH. That seems to point toward henotheism. For a corresponding example from Israel, I recollect that in Judges Jephthah tells the Moabites, "Why don't you stick to the land your god, Chemosh, gave you, and get your mitts off the land our god, YHWH gave us?"</P>
<P>(Interestingly, Jephthah addressed his comments to the Amonites - u.h.)</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Moabite deities, as practically all others in the ANE, accepted and tolerated other deities; sometimes there were misunderstandings in the pantheon that involved murder, fraticide, etc. but the existence of other gods was taken for granted. That is one sharp difference between Yahwism and other religious systems of that era: Yahweh is intolerant of other gods.</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Was there worship of other gods? No difinitive answer from extra-biblical sources is available (excluding Kunteilat Ajrud and Kh. el-Qum). From material findings in AI II one cannot draw firm conclusions. What for instance is the meaning of the hundreds of female figurines - do they represent Canaanite goddesses of fertility or did they function simply as talismans, how to interpret the fact that not a single male figurine or figure was found from that period (Yahweh sternly forbids physical representations of himself.) To whom were offerings made in horned altars, either monumental, or those employed for domestic use.</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Both Jim Thorn and Kurt Noll base their arguments on examples from the HB.&nbsp;I deduct - perhaps too hastily - that they regard narratives in Judges and Samuel as providing real historical backgrounds to events they depict.</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Uri Hurwitz&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P><p><br><hr size=1><strong>Do You Yahoo!?</strong><br>
<a href=http://auctions.yahoo.com>Yahoo! Auctions</a> - Buy the things you want at great prices!
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:36:25 EST
From: FucciXXV@aol.com
Subject: Re: ane Early Yahwism 

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>>It is always pleasant to have a meeting of the minds.

Agreed.

>>"But then why do you dismiss suggestions of monolatry or henotheism?"

>>I oppose them only to the extent that they are used as a generalization >>
encompassing the whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Israel.=20

I haven't seen anyone here insist that they be used that way.  Perhaps I've=20
misread something, but I had gotten the impression that you have been=20
asserting the absence of henotheism as a generalization encompassing the=20
whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Israel.

>>Ancient strands of aniconic, jealous Yahwism may well have persisted=20
>>throughout.

This presumes that "jealous Yahwism" is the ancient strand rather than a lat=
e=20
development, and also that "jealous Yahwism" equals monotheistic Yahwism. =20
You imply as fact what are still very live interpretive questions.  A=20
henotheistic Yahweh would be equally consistent (or perhaps even more=20
consistent) with a "jealous" Yahweh.=20

>>(Interestingly, Jephthah addressed his comments to the=20
>>Amonites - u.h.)

I didn't have a Bible at hand when I wrote my post, so I was working from=20
memory.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
>>Moabite deities, as practically all others in the ANE, accepted and=20
>>tolerated other deities; sometimes there were misunderstandings in=20
>>the pantheon that involved murder, fraticide, etc. but the existence of=20
>>other gods was taken for granted. That is one sharp difference between=20
>>Yahwism and other religious systems of that era: Yahweh is intolerant=20
>>of other gods.

After noting my error about the Ammonites, you avoid addressing my still ver=
y=20
valid point: Jephthah's statement is a textbook description of henotheism,=20
delivered by a Yahwist hero figure.  That would seem to be evidence that, at=
=20
least at that point in the text, Yahweh "tolerated" other gods.  Your=20
statement that "Yahweh is intolerant of other gods" -- if by this you mean h=
e=20
asserts the nonexistence of other gods -- is a very disputable interpretatio=
n=20
simply stated as an axiom.  It is not by itself convincing.

>>Was there worship of other gods? No difinitive answer from extra-biblical=20
>>sources is available (excluding Kunteilat Ajrud and Kh. el-Qum).=20

A definitive answer does seem to be available from the intra-biblical=20
sources: yes, there was worship of other gods -- Asherah, the Queen of=20
Heaven, the Sun, the Host of Heaven, the Beni-Elim, etc.  Asherah was even=20
worshipped in the Temple itself. =20

Also, why should we exclude Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Kom?

>>From material findings in AI II one cannot draw firm conclusions. What for=
=20
>>instance is the meaning of the hundreds of female figurines - do they=20
represent >>Canaanite goddesses of fertility or did they function simply as=20
talismans, how to >>interpret the fact that not a single male figurine or=20
figure was found from that period >>(Yahweh sternly forbids physical=20
representations of himself.) To whom were offerings >>made in horned altars,=
=20
either monumental, or those employed for domestic use.

Perhaps they represent a Hebrew goddess of fertility.  I think that's how=20
they would be almost reflexively read in most other material assemblages.  I=
n=20
any case, if the material findings do not afford firm conclusions, then how=20
can you state so firmly that Yahwism asserted the nonexistence of other gods=
?=20
 It is certainly not any more self-evident from the text than it is from the=
=20
material assemblage.

>>Both Jim Thorn and Kurt Noll base their arguments on examples from the=20
>>HB.=A0I deduct - perhaps too hastily - that they regard narratives in Judg=
es=20
>>and Samuel as providing real historical backgrounds to events they depict.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
I can't speak for Kurt, but I regard them as directly providing only the=20
creator of the text's belief about the past at the time of the production of=
=20
the text.  The accuracy of those beliefs about the past are a wholly separat=
e=20
question to be addressed on a case-by-case basis.  If the creator of the=20
Deuteronomic History created or retained an overtly henotheistic text in=20
Judges, then to me it implies that the creator of the DH was himself=20
henotheistic, or that he regarded henotheism as the nature of Yahwism in a=20
real or mythic "time of the Judges," or that the opposition of henotheism an=
d=20
monotheism was not a pertinent enough issue for him to remove a henotheistic=
=20
passage from an older text he was incorporating.

Jim Thorn
Chicago, IL

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>
<BR>&gt;&gt;It is always pleasant to have a meeting of the minds.
<BR>
<BR>Agreed.
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;"But then why do you dismiss suggestions of monolatry or henothe=
ism?"
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;I oppose them only to the extent that they are used as a general=
ization &gt;&gt;
<BR>encompassing the whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Isra=
el.=20
<BR>
<BR>I haven't seen anyone here insist that they be used that way. &nbsp;Perh=
aps I've=20
<BR>misread something, but I had gotten the impression that you have been=20
<BR>asserting the absence of henotheism as a generalization encompassing the=
=20
<BR>whole religious experiences and rituals of ancient Israel.
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;Ancient strands of aniconic, jealous Yahwism may well have persi=
sted=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;throughout.
<BR>
<BR>This presumes that "jealous Yahwism" is the ancient strand rather than a=
 late=20
<BR>development, and also that "jealous Yahwism" equals monotheistic Yahwism=
. &nbsp;
<BR>You imply as fact what are still very live interpretive questions. &nbsp=
;A=20
<BR>henotheistic Yahweh would be equally consistent (or perhaps even more=20
<BR>consistent) with a "jealous" Yahweh.=20
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;(Interestingly, Jephthah addressed his comments to the=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;Amonites - u.h.)
<BR>
<BR>I didn't have a Bible at hand when I wrote my post, so I was working fro=
m=20
<BR>memory.
<BR>=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;Moabite deities, as practically all others in the ANE, accepted=20=
and=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;tolerated other deities; sometimes there were misunderstandings=20=
in=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;the pantheon that involved murder, fraticide, etc. but the exist=
ence of=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;other gods was taken for granted. That is one sharp difference b=
etween=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;Yahwism and other religious systems of that era: Yahweh is intol=
erant=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;of other gods.
<BR>
<BR>After noting my error about the Ammonites, you avoid addressing my still=
 very=20
<BR>valid point: Jephthah's statement is a textbook description of henotheis=
m,=20
<BR>delivered by a Yahwist hero figure. &nbsp;That would seem to be evidence=
 that, at=20
<BR>least at that point in the text, Yahweh "tolerated" other gods. &nbsp;Yo=
ur=20
<BR>statement that "Yahweh is intolerant of other gods" -- if by this you me=
an he=20
<BR>asserts the nonexistence of other gods -- is a very disputable interpret=
ation=20
<BR>simply stated as an axiom. &nbsp;It is not by itself convincing.
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;Was there worship of other gods? No difinitive answer from extra=
- -biblical=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;sources is available (excluding Kunteilat Ajrud and Kh. el-Qum).=
=20
<BR>
<BR>A definitive answer does seem to be available from the intra-biblical=20
<BR>sources: yes, there was worship of other gods -- Asherah, the Queen of=20
<BR>Heaven, the Sun, the Host of Heaven, the Beni-Elim, etc. &nbsp;Asherah w=
as even=20
<BR>worshipped in the Temple itself. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Also, why should we exclude Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Kom?
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;From material findings in AI II one cannot draw firm conclusions=
. What for=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;instance is the meaning of the hundreds of female figurines - do=
 they=20
<BR>represent &gt;&gt;Canaanite goddesses of fertility or did they function=20=
simply as=20
<BR>talismans, how to &gt;&gt;interpret the fact that not a single male figu=
rine or=20
<BR>figure was found from that period &gt;&gt;(Yahweh sternly forbids physic=
al=20
<BR>representations of himself.) To whom were offerings &gt;&gt;made in horn=
ed altars,=20
<BR>either monumental, or those employed for domestic use.
<BR>
<BR>Perhaps they represent a Hebrew goddess of fertility. &nbsp;I think that=
's how=20
<BR>they would be almost reflexively read in most other material assemblages=
. &nbsp;In=20
<BR>any case, if the material findings do not afford firm conclusions, then=20=
how=20
<BR>can you state so firmly that Yahwism asserted the nonexistence of other=20=
gods?=20
<BR>&nbsp;It is certainly not any more self-evident from the text than it is=
 from the=20
<BR>material assemblage.
<BR>
<BR>&gt;&gt;Both Jim Thorn and Kurt Noll base their arguments on examples fr=
om the=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;HB.=A0I deduct - perhaps too hastily - that they regard narrativ=
es in Judges=20
<BR>&gt;&gt;and Samuel as providing real historical backgrounds to events th=
ey depict.
<BR>=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
<BR>I can't speak for Kurt, but I regard them as directly providing only the=
=20
<BR>creator of the text's belief about the past at the time of the productio=
n of=20
<BR>the text. &nbsp;The accuracy of those beliefs about the past are a wholl=
y separate=20
<BR>question to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. &nbsp;If the creator o=
f the=20
<BR>Deuteronomic History created or retained an overtly henotheistic text in=
=20
<BR>Judges, then to me it implies that the creator of the DH was himself=20
<BR>henotheistic, or that he regarded henotheism as the nature of Yahwism in=
 a=20
<BR>real or mythic "time of the Judges," or that the opposition of henotheis=
m and=20
<BR>monotheism was not a pertinent enough issue for him to remove a henothei=
stic=20
<BR>passage from an older text he was incorporating.
<BR>
<BR>Jim Thorn
<BR>Chicago, IL</FONT></HTML>

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End of ANE Digest V2001 #66
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