From: ane-digest-owner@oi.uchicago.edu To: ane-digest@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: Ancient Near East Digest V1 #67 Reply-To: ane@oi.uchicago.edu Errors-To: ane-digest-owner@oi.uchicago.edu Precedence: bulk Ancient Near East Digest Wednesday, 30 March 1994 Volume 01 : Number 067 In this issue: Professor Edith Porada =20 =20; $$ Re: Davidic Dynasty RE: 'Presuming' a Davidic Dynasty RE: 'Presuming' a Davidic Dynasty bet-davd mystery text More on "presuming" Re: Davidic Dynasty David, archaeology... Re: Davidic Dynasty Re: Davidic Dynasty David, archaeology... (fwd) Re: Condemnations of condemnations of condemnation transliterating Tiberian Hebrew Re: Davidic Dynasty bytdwd Tut's trumpets Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem da:va:r, etc. (transliteration) query to Avi Ofer Re: Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem Re: Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem Sender: ane-owner@oi.uchicago.edu Bible Lands Museum Re: Ancient Near East Digest V1 #66 Re: query to Avi Ofer (David, etc.) [none] Blemmyes Re: query to Avi Ofer (David, etc.) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the ANE or ANE-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "KRubinson" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 16:05:18 EST Subject: Professor Edith Porada It is with personal and professional sadness that I pass on the news of the death of Dr. Edith Porada on Thursday, March 24 at the age of 81. Quoting from the obituary in the New York Times, Saturday, March 26: "At her death, Dr. Porada was Arthur Lehman professor emeritus of art history and archaeology at Columbia and honorary curator of seals and tablets at the Pierpoint Morgan Library. She joined the Columbia faculty in 1958...Before Columbia, she held positions at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Queens College Art Department." "A native of Vienna, Dr. Porada received a doctorate at the University of Vienna in 1935 and arrived in [America] three years later." Professor Porada significantly contributed to and energetically fostered the study of the art of the Ancient Near East. Those of us who had the privilege to study with her and those who work in the field have all benefited greatly from her broad knowledge and great enthusiasm. She will be missed. Karen S. Rubinson KRUBINSO@Barnard.Columbia.edu ------------------------------ From: "Richard L. Goerwitz" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 15:14:12 CST Subject: =20 =20; $$ >Our system manager in Tel-Aviv tells me that we use MIME, which is an=20 >advanced procedure enabling to mail graphics (sometimes it is called=20 >"metamail"), and those of you who do not have it may get these signs. =FBSo= >=20 >from his part, the problem is at the other end of the line... Your system administrator is simply not doing his or her job if this is all the help you are getting. The entire world is not going to install MIME tomorrow just to make his or her job easier. I suggest you go to higher-ups and get some answers. Richard Goerwitz U of Chicago ------------------------------ From: "Bob Haak" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 20:49:33 GMT-500 Subject: Re: Davidic Dynasty > I have always amazed at the endurance which the Davidic Dynasty > had in ancient Judah (over 400 years by Biblical account). I can't > think of any other dynasty's which lasted as long in the ancient > near east, but perhaps I am overlooking some. Does anyone know of > other long enduring dynasties outside the ANE? > > Bill Schniedewind> The longevity of the Davidic dynasty may be more fictive than historical (cf. the unusual beginnings of the reign of Jehoash, for example). All kings of Judah MUST be Davidic descendents (whether they are or not!). Bob Haak Augustana College ------------------------------ From: "Bob Haak" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 20:58:17 GMT-500 Subject: RE: 'Presuming' a Davidic Dynasty > I think there is a good reason to "presume" the historicity of > the Davidic Dynasty, especially given the recent inscriptional > evidence from Tel Dan which mentions byt dwd. I realize that > some (e.g., Thompson) would gainsay this evidence, but it really seems > hard to get around. There is no other reasonable interpretation > of byt-dwd in the Tel Dan inscription other than a reference > to the "house of David." Moreover, I don't really understand > why we're so eager to dismiss David & Solomon. > > Regards, Bill Schniedewind, AIAR (Jerusalem) > In fact, there ARE other 'reasonalbe' interpretations of the phrase "bytbwd". I have before me a note from Ehud Ben Zvi (who is on the list) which points out at least one other possibility. (I will let him speak for his own proposal.) I am not one to argue against the reigns of David/Solomon....but the T. Dan inscription is not the sure- fire evidence that is portrayed in the popular press. Bob Haak Augustana College ------------------------------ From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Wardini) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:36:57 +0200 Subject: RE: 'Presuming' a Davidic Dynasty >> >In fact, there ARE other 'reasonalbe' interpretations of the phrase >"bytbwd". I have before me a note from Ehud Ben Zvi (who is on the >list) which points out at least one other possibility. (I will let >him speak for his own proposal.) I am not one to argue against the >reigns of David/Solomon....but the T. Dan inscription is not the sure- >fire evidence that is portrayed in the popular press. > >Bob Haak >Augustana College > Ehud, could you share you point of view? Elie Wardini Department for East-European and Oriental Studies Semitic languages Post Box 1030 Blindern 0315 Oslo Norway tel. off.: +47 - 22 85 71 21 home: +47 - 22 19 03 49 fax: +47 - 22 85 41 40 e-mail: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no ------------------------------ From: "Niels Peter Lemche" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 11:46:20 CST Subject: bet-davd Noting the discussion about this inscription, what does it really say that we did not know before? If it is Bet-David, then we "knew" that some part of Palestine was ruled vy a house of this name, but the text does not prove David to have been a historical person, only that a certain political organisation in Palestine in the Iron Age was named so. A seminar here in Copenhagen based on Cryer's forthcoming article in SJOT agreed on a date of the late 8th century for the inscription, and the archaeological context points in the same direction - this was at least the opinion of the professional archaeologist present. The text is interesting for mentioning Israel, and for the betdavd, but has really little or nothing to adduce to our knowledge of King David. Lemche ------------------------------ From: WYATTN@srv0.div.edinburgh.ac.uk Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:23:44 GMT Subject: mystery text I was mortified to find that my rejection of Tsumura's view (UF 9) and a recent foray into the mysteries of KTU 1. 23 (UF 24) were untouched on by Ted Lewis. In my view Mt-w-Sr is El himself. I'll be interested to have reactions to these views. Nick Wyatt: Duneiddeann ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 18:42 +0200 Subject: More on "presuming" I would agree with Niels Peter Lemche that the mention of byt dwd does not prove there was a historical person named David. It does seem to indicate that there was a "house of David", that is, the notion of the Davidic Dynasty. Of course, those of what I would call the minimalistic bent will have little to say about the Judean monarchy at all until the late 8th century when Assyrian records begin to fill out more of the picture. I would caution that the Assyrian records themselves are highly propagandistic and really of minimal value for filling out the picture. And, I am very skeptical of the rush by historians to appeal to archaeology to help out. Having spent a few seasons in the field myself, I do not wish to minimize archaeology's contribution, but how much does it really contribute? And, those familiar with the various debates about archaeological evidence will be skeptical about relying on archaeology alone. So, what is really left? For the minimallist, nothing. Bill Schniedewind Albright Institute (Jerusalem) ------------------------------ From: ofer avi Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 22:20:13 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: Davidic Dynasty On Sun, 27 Mar 1994, Bob Haak wrote: > The longevity of the Davidic dynasty may be more fictive than=20 > historical (cf. the unusual beginnings of the reign of Jehoash, for=20 > example). All kings of Judah MUST be Davidic descendents (whether=20 > they are or not!). What is essential here is not the biological continuity (interesting by=20 itself), but the formal one - from this aspect a possible fictivity is=20 not so importa=FBnt (see the adoption in imperial Rome). Avi Ofer ------------------------------ From: ofer avi Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 22:45:13 +0200 (IST) Subject: David, archaeology... 1) The Dan inscription does not add something essentially new about David. 2) I would like to see more evidence to such a late date for the=20 inscription as late 8th cent., before I could consider it seriousely (who= =20 is the archaeologist who dated it so?). 3) A pure archaeological spatial analysis of the detailed archaeological material from Judah (esp. the Highland of Judah) shows clearly that around mid 11th to 10th cent. BCE a well-integrated unit was crystalized in Judah, around the archaeological site of Jerusalem. =FBArchaeology canno= t prove, in 99.9% of the cases, more than such a general picture. The existence of David and Salomon is not proved by this. But it fits well with the general Biblical description of their era, so the proof that the founders of this social/political unit, centered in Jerusalem, were not David and his descendants, but others, is on the scholars who claim this.= =20 Avi Ofer Judean Highland Research ------------------------------ From: Oded Borowski Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:42:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Davidic Dynasty Using the appellation _bytdwd_ in the T. Dan inscription might be similar to the use of _bit Humri_ (Beit 'Omri) by the Assyrians. They referred to Israel by this name eventhough there were no direct dynastic continuity. Oded Borowski On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, ofer avi wrote: > On Sun, 27 Mar 1994, Bob Haak wrote: >=20 > > The longevity of the Davidic dynasty may be more fictive than=20 > > historical (cf. the unusual beginnings of the reign of Jehoash, for=20 > > example). All kings of Judah MUST be Davidic descendents (whether=20 > > they are or not!). >=20 > What is essential here is not the biological continuity (interesting by= =20 > itself), but the formal one - from this aspect a possible fictivity is=20 > not so importa=FBnt (see the adoption in imperial Rome). >=20 > Avi Ofer >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ From: "Richard Beal" Date: 28 Mar 1994 16:55:18 U Subject: Re: Davidic Dynasty Reply to: RE>Davidic Dynasty Concerning the length of rule by a single dynasty in the ANE, the longest I know of is the Assyrian. Middle and Neo-Assyrian kings traced their origins back to an otherwise unknown king Adasi who took the throne during a period of turmoil around 1690 B.C. The last king of this dynasty is Assur-uballit II, who disappears from history with the fall of Harran in 609 B.C. This means the dynasty lasted around 1080 years. Not even in the running, but still rather long is the Hittite dynasty of Tudhaliya II lasting some 13 generations if one continues the counting through their decendants, the kings of Kargamish and Malatya. And since some passages seem to indicate that Tudhaliya's father was king, this dynasty is probably descended from the Old Hittite dynasty consisting of at least 11 more generations. Richard Beal Hittite Dictionary Project Oriental Institute Univ. of Chicago r-beal@uchicago.edu - -------------------------------------- Date: 3/26/94 5:13 AM To: Richard Beal From: WSCH%HUJIVMS.BITNET@midway.uch I have always amazed at the endurance which the Davidic Dynasty had in ancient Judah (over 400 years by Biblical account). I can't think of any other dynasty's which lasted as long in the ancient near east, but perhaps I am overlooking some. Does anyone know of other long enduring dynasties outside the ANE? Bill Schniedewind > ****************************************************************** Dr. William M. Schniedewind Albright Institute of Archaeological Research Land Mail: 12 Otniel, PO Box 8571, 91083 Jerusalem ISRAEL E-mail: wsch@vms.huji.ac.il FAX: 011-972-2-717537 Phone: 011-972-2-715133 ****************************************************************** - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu with SMTP;26 Mar 1994 05:13:31 U Received: from mithra-orinst.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for greg_munson@memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu Sat, 26 Mar 94 05:09:15 CST Received: by mithra-orinst.uchicago.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18335; Sat, 26 Mar 94 05:09:21 CST Received: from UCHIMVS1.UCHICAGO.EDU by mithra-orinst.uchicago.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18328; Sat, 26 Mar 94 05:09:16 CST Received: from UCHIMVS1.BITNET by UCHIMVS1.UCHICAGO.EDU (IBM MVS SMTP V2R2.1) with BSMTP id 5551; Sat, 26 Mar 94 05:08:26 CDT Received: (from HUJIVMS for via BSMTP) Received: (from WSCH@HUJIVMS for MAILER@UCHIMVS1 via NJE) (UCLA/Mail V1.500 M-YHVI0643-0643-0); Sat, 26 Mar 94 05:08:15 CST Received: by HUJIVMS (HUyMail-V6l); Sat, 26 Mar 94 13:06:44 +0200 Date: Sat, 26 Mar 94 13:06 +0200 Message-Id: <26030094130643@HUJIVMS> From: To: ANE@mithra-orinst.uchicago.edu Subject: Davidic Dynasty Sender: ane-owner@mithra-orinst.uchicago.edu Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ From: ofer avi Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 01:49:24 +0200 (IST) Subject: David, archaeology... (fwd) (REMAILED) 1) The Dan inscription does not add something essentially new about David. 2) I would like to see more evidence to such a late date for the=20 inscription as late 8th cent., before I could consider it seriousely (who= =20 is the archaeologist who dated it so?). 3) A pure archaeological spatial analysis of the detailed archaeological material from Judah (esp. the Highland of Judah) shows clearly that around mid 11th to 10th cent. BCE a well-integrated unit was crystalized in Judah, around the archaeological site of Jerusalem. =FBArchaeology canno= t prove, in 99.9% of the cases, more than such a general picture. The existence of David and Salomon is not proved by this. But it fits well with the general Biblical description of their era, so the proof that the founders of this social/political unit, centered in Jerusalem, were not David and his descendants, but others, is on the scholars who claim this.= =20 Avi Ofer Judean Highland Research ------------------------------ From: sburste@atss.calstatela.edu Date: Tue Mar 1 13:21:27 PST 1994 Subject: Re: Condemnations of condemnations of condemnation 22 ------------------------------ From: "Richard L. Goerwitz" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 22:08:18 CST Subject: transliterating Tiberian Hebrew Many thanks to everyone who has sent back comments on the transliteration article I have been mailing out. Anyone who has a copy and hasn't said his or her piece, please feel free to drop me a line. The list of credits, which I've attached to the terminal I'm typing at now, has be- come quite long, and Bob Johnson and I are hoping it'll grow even longer. Richard Goerwitz ------------------------------ From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Wardini) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 10:29:52 +0200 Subject: Re: Davidic Dynasty >On Sun, 27 Mar 1994, Bob Haak wrote: > >> The longevity of the Davidic dynasty may be more fictive than >> historical (cf. the unusual beginnings of the reign of Jehoash, for >> example). All kings of Judah MUST be Davidic descendents (whether >> they are or not!). > >What is essential here is not the biological continuity (interesting by >itself), but the formal one - from this aspect a possible fictivity is >not so importa nt (see the adoption in imperial Rome). Also Islamic communities, it is important for the leader to be able to *show* the he is a descendant of Muhammad. >Avi Ofer Elie Wardini ------------------------------ From: DONALDRVANCE@delphi.com Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 02:38:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: bytdwd To All, I find Mr. Lemche's historical nihilism a bit tiring. Does he doubt the existence of an historical personage by the name of Omri as well? We have no more corroboration of his existence than we do of David's. Donald R. Vance donaldrvance@delphi.com ------------------------------ From: ncs3@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nigel Strudwick) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 11:09:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tut's trumpets Following recent items about the trumpets of Tutankhamun, I have made a simple Macintosh Hypercard stack with the recording of the silver trumpet available by anonymous ftp from newton.newton.cam.ac.uk, in the directory pub/ancient/egypt, filename trumpet.hqx. If anyone has problems getting it, please let me know. Other items for the ftp archive are welcome. Nigel Strudwick ------------------------------ From: Oded Borowski Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 09:31:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem The Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem will celebrate its second anniversary on 10-12 May 1994 with a series of events and the openning of a new exhibit "Vaults of Memory, Images from the Jewish and Christian Catacombs of Rome." For more information contact American Friends of the Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem 49th West 45th St., Suite 1100 New York NY 10036 Oded Borowski ------------------------------ From: "Richard L. Goerwitz" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 08:55:39 CST Subject: da:va:r, etc. (transliteration) Thanks for the response. Just for the record, let me comment on E.W.'s comments on my comments on the five vs. seven-vowel system. E.W. says: >The reason why I like this system, as opposed to the seven system, is that >it helps me (though not in all cases) see the system in a comparative >Semitic perspective. eg. long a: in Semitic become o:, while a changes >depending on tone etc. Thus qamets Hatuf makes sence too < *u. I know that our system requires a paradigm shift for comparative Semi- tists, but, e.g., the link between historical stressed /a/ and /a:/ and ultimately qamatz is not as tight as we might wish. Also, everything but the qamatz is reconstructed. Just as we don't insert Latin vowels into our transcriptions of French words, we should not inject reconstructed length features into our transcriptions of Tiberian Hebrew. >Especially since we are not dealing with a *living* language when speaking >of MT Hebrew, pronunciation is not of prime importance. One can explain >what indications we have about the actual pronounciation of the qamets, >segol etc. This idea is, in my view, backwards. We have the sources. The fundamental dictum of all philological and linguistic work is to start here. To cre- ate a vowel system foreign to the sources, then transliterate the sources as if they used that vowel system, is unconscionable. It also creates some absurd situations, e.g. cases where we know qamatz "hatuf" to have been phonetically long. All of this can be remedied by simply sticking to the sources, and adopting the seven-vowel system used by Bergstraesser, Bauer & Leander, Jouon, Meyer, Blau, Muraoka, and so on (basically every advan- ced grammar after Kautsch). Richard U of Chicago ------------------------------ From: Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 10:19:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: query to Avi Ofer Re: Avi Ofer's posting concerning archeological evidence for David/Solomon: What is a "pure archaeological spatial analysis" and how on earth can it "show" anything about a specific political entity? Is interpretation once again masking itself as science? Cordially, Alan Cooper, HUC-JIR ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 22:13 +0200 Subject: Re: Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem Oded Borowski recently announced: > The Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem will celebrate its second anniversary on > 10-12 May 1994 with a series of events and the openning of a new exhibit > "Vaults of Memory, Images from the Jewish and Christian Catacombs of > Rome." For more information contact > American Friends of the > Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem > 49th West 45th St., Suite 1100 > New York NY 10036 Perhaps Oded would save us the trouble of writing to the American Friends and tell us how these images were obtained. We have a good idea how the rest of the Bible Lands Museum collection was aquired. Perhaps these will be objects lent officially by the Government of Italy in honor of this august occasion. Then I can sigh with relief. David Ilan, HUC-Jerusalem ------------------------------ From: Amy Hirschfeld Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 17:48:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem On Tue, 29 Mar 1994 HUCLIB%HUJIVMS.BITNET@midway.uchicago.edu wrote: > Oded Borowski recently announced: > > > The Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem will celebrate its second anniversary on > > 10-12 May 1994 with a series of events and the openning of a new exhibit > > "Vaults of Memory, Images from the Jewish and Christian Catacombs of > > Rome." For more information contact > > American Friends of the > > Bible Lands Museum Jerusalem > > 49th West 45th St., Suite 1100 > > New York NY 10036 > > > Perhaps Oded would save us the trouble of writing to the American Friends and > tell us how these images were obtained. We have a good idea how the rest of > the Bible Lands Museum collection was aquired. Perhaps these will be objects > lent officially by the Government of Italy in honor of this august occasion. > Then I can sigh with relief. > > David Ilan, HUC-Jerusalem > Well, you can sigh with relief. The exhibit Vaults of Memory, Images from the Jewish and Christian Catacombs of Rome was lent to the Bible Lands Museum by the International Catacomb Society located in Boston, Massachusetts. It is a photographic exhibit assembled by the late founder of the Society, Estelle Brettman. Mrs. Brettman took photographs in the Roman catacombs, many of which are now inaccessible, with the full consent and cooperation of the Italian government. The only non-photographic material in the exhibit is in the form of casts of inscriptions from the catacombs, also made with the full consent of the Italian government. One of the purposes of this exhibit is to give a better understanding of the commonalities in the imagery of the Jewish, Christian, and Pagan catacombs as well as their antecedants in ancient Greek, Egyptian, and Near Eastern religions and cultures. If anyone would like any more information about this exhibit or about the International Catacomb Society, please write to the Society at 61 Beacon Street, Boston, MA 02108 or contact me by e-mail, ahirschf@husc8.harvard.edu. - -Amy Hirschfeld ------------------------------ From: RODRIGUE Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 20:08:09 CST Subject: Sender: ane-owner@oi.uchicago.edu help ------------------------------ From: gadi@vax.ox.ac.uk Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 09:41:14 +0100 Subject: Bible Lands Museum At the risk of reopening a can of worms already sampled on this list, it seems to me that the Bible Lands Museum represents the very essence of the bad side of antiquities acquisition, and as such should really be avoided by all who acknowledge the dangers to our profession and to the recovery of the past that this practice presents. I visited the museum some 18 months ago, soon after its opening, sadly to discover very few if any provenanced or properly dated items, and when I asked one of the curators there what percentage of the items on display were fakes, I was given a "don't know" answer. The whole museum seems to be nothing more than a tribute to one man's insatiable appetite to collect looted, stolen and otherwise illegally acquired antiquities over many years. Frankly, the museum should be visited once only by archaeologists, simply to reinforce the absolute necessity to work against this practice with all our energy, for to see the display can only vividly bring home to one the sad truth that the selfish acquisition of these items serves no-one except the purchaser's own ego, and does irreperable harm to our cause. Garth Gilmour University of Oxford ------------------------------ From: V52@MVS.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 11:00 Subject: Re: Ancient Near East Digest V1 #66 UNSUSCRIBE ANE ------------------------------ From: ofer avi Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:00:07 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: query to Avi Ofer (David, etc.) On Tue, 29 Mar 1994, Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank wrote: > Re: Avi Ofer's posting concerning archeological evidence > for David/Solomon: > > What is a "pure archaeological spatial analysis" and how on > earth can it "show" anything about a specific political > entity? Is interpretation once again masking itself as > science? > > Cordially, Alan Cooper, HUC-JIR > > Dear Alan, Your questions are serious, but why this agressive tune? I will answer you later (this week, I hope), or maybe to the whole list. In principle, this is an analysis of the archaeolgical settlements in a given region, taking into account their size and other factors. Spatial patterns of societies, both old and contemporaneous, historical and prehistorical, may show their social and economical integrity, their center and sub-centers, etc. It has nothing to do with written sources, and was checked by me in Judah with no historical prejudgements. In my message I wrote explicitly that this is NOT an archaeological proof for David and/or Salomon - THIS question is historical, not archaeological. But if there was such a political unit in Judah, centered in Jerusalem, our HISTORICAL documents fail to show other candidates for its leadership. That is science, as far as I understand it - taking the available data as the (temporary) truth, until new data will disprove it or raise other questions. See under Poper, Kuhn, etc. Yours, -- Avi. ------------------------------ From: "John F. DeFelice Jr. defelice@miami.acs.muhio.edu" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 11:11:27 EST Subject: [none] I am presently working on a project which examines the Blemmye (Beja) who inhabited the area around the first cataract of the Nile, and their relationship with the monasteries in that area. In the course of my research, I have found several references that indicate that they were used a "type" to describe devils and demons in Coptic sermons. Does anyone on the network have access to these primary sources (in Coptic, Greek, or translated into English or German)?Any references would be helpful that have specific examples, as well as details of Blemmye raids against the monasteries themselves (other than the more notable raid on the White Monastery in Besa's Life of Shenoute) This seems to be up Lester Ness' alley, but any reply would be helpful! Secondary sources would help as well. Thanks...and happy holidays John F. DeFelice Jr defelice@miami.acs.muohio.edu ------------------------------ From: "Terry Wilfong" Date: 30 Mar 1994 11:08:49 U Subject: Blemmyes Blemmyes A couple of useful recent sources on the Blemmyes are: Robert Timothy Updegraff, _A Study of the Blemmyes: A Dissertation Presented to the Faculty of the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, Brandeis University, Department of Classics and Oriental Studies...._ Ph. D. Dissertation, Brandeis University, June 1978. University Microfilms Order Number 7819964 Helmut Satzinger, "Anmerkungen zu einigen Blemmyer-Texten" In _Lebendige Altertumswissenschaft: Festgabe zur Vollendung des 70. Lebensjahres von Hermann Vetters_, (Wien: Verlag Adolf Holzhausens Nfg., 1985): 327-32. The former is a survey of the Blemmyes through ancient sources, including citations and English translations of some texts. The latter contains notes and citations for relevant ancient sources for the Blemmyes. There is also a brief article "Beja Tribes" by William Y. Adams in _The Coptic Encyclopedia_, ed. Aziz Atiya (New York: Macmillan, 1991), 2:373-74, that has some useful bibliography. +++++++++++++++++++++ Terry Wilfong University of Chicago t-wilfong@uchicago.edu ------------------------------ From: Bruce Verhaaren Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 12:27:41 CST Subject: Re: query to Avi Ofer (David, etc.) The exchange between Alan Cooper and Avi Ofer raises the question of relating spatial patterning in the archaeological record to historical political systems. While interpretation of evidence is a part of archaeology and all other sciences, it is also true that archaeology is an exacting rather than an exact science. It seems to me that hierarchical spatial distributions of archaeological sites are better indicators of economic integration than of political integration, though the two can be related. I hope Avi Ofer will present his evidence from Judah in this forum. Bruce Verhaaren Environmental Assessment Division Argonne National Laboratory verhaarb@smtplink.anl.eid.gov ------------------------------ End of Ancient Near East Digest V1 #67 ************************************** To subscribe to ANE-Digest, send the command: subscribe ANE-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@oi.uchicago.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-ANE": subscribe ANE-digest local-ANE@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "ANE-digest" in the commands above with "ANE". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from oi.uchicago.edu, in pub/ane/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).