From: owner-ane To: ane-digest@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: Ancient Near East Digest V2 #107 Reply-To: Errors-To: owner-ane Precedence: bulk Ancient Near East Digest Tuesday, 27 June 1995 Volume 02 : Number 107 ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics ANE: Q? discourse and Hebrew Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW Re: Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW Re: Ancient World on TV [North America] Re: Ancient World on TV [North America] Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] E-mail address G. Bucellatti Re: Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics Ancient World on TV Re: Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] Lost Civilizations - Egypt Ancient World on TV headings, etc. German in school Re: German in school TV portrayal of archaeology Re: German in school German in school Re: TV portrayal of archaeology archaeology and television... [none] Lost Civilizations program 6/25/95 (fwd) TV portrayal of archaeology (and science in general) TV portrayal of science Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics (fwd) Ineni's tomb Ancient World on TV - the good Just for fun Re: TV portrayal of archaeology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vincent DeCaen Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics I came across a curious passage in a discussion of Lacan's work that is attributed to Freud in "The Claims of Psychoanalysis to Scientific Interest" (1913). If we reflect that the means of representation in dreams are principally visual images and not words, we shall see that it is even more appropriate to compare dreams with a system of writing than with a language. In fact the interpretation of dreams is completely analogous to the decipherment of an ancient pictographic script such as Egyptian hieroglyphs. In both cases there are certain elements which are not intended to be interpreted (or read, as the case may be) but are only designed to serve as "determinatives", that is to establish the meaning of some other element. The ambiguity of various elements of dreams finds a parallel in these ancient systems of writing; and so too does the omission of various relations, which have in both cases to be supplied from the context. If this conception of the method of representation in dreams has not yet been followed up, this, as will be readily understood, must be ascribed to the fact that psychoanalysts are entirely ignorant of the attitude and knowledge with which a philologist would approach such a problem as that presented by dreams. two questions: 1) what do we know of the actual Eg. lang. studies of Freud? if he didn't study Eg, what is the source of his secondary knowledge. 2) does he use this analogy in other parts of his corpus? do other psychoanalysts make use of the analogy? just curious. if you don't know, but have a psych. acquaintance, can you pass on the questions. ------------------------------ From: Vincent DeCaen Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANE: Q? discourse and Hebrew I've been seeing some relatively startling claims about the ability of discourse analysts to divide up Hebrew texts using their tools, especially the ability to identify "paragraphs". It seems to me that native speakers of English would have a better time with English texts than Hebrew. Would it not be simple to construct a test taking unstructured English texts, e.g., transcripts of interviews, and see what different discourse analysts come up with? How much do you want to bet that the results will differ considerably?? just curious, as usual. ------------------------------ From: Sigrid Peterson Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 23:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics Freud's major work on dreams, The Interpretation of Dreams, was published about 1900, plus or minus a year. Thus it would have been at least ten years earlier than the the article from which Lacan quotes, according to De Caen's citation. While I didn't read through Interpretation of Dreams (ID) when it was published, it *was quite a while ago that I read all of it. As near as I recall, Freud did not make the connection between dreams and language strategies in ID. He then saw dreams as "the royal road to the unconscious" and thought that dreams and slips of the tongue ("Freudian slips") and paranomasias came from the same matrix, the same unconscious activity, governed by irrational desire (or id). The Psychopathology of Everyday Life dates from shortly after the turn of the century, and is in a similar vein. That is, Freud treated both dreams and slips as information from which to infer the state of the unconscious, with some validity, as his self-analysis and analyses of others demonstrated to him and to his circle of followers. He did *not* see them as communication. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ He was probably studying Egyptian, or *about Egyptian, in conjunction with writing about Moses and Monotheism, which is within three or four years of the 1913 article. That's in contrast to the bulk of the 1890s being involved in writing ID. I can't speak too well for psychoanalysts, but in the dream interpretation schemata I'm familiar with as a psychologist, the elements of dreams are not assigned different linguistic roles as indicators of action, or determinatives, or noun phrases. I can see the possibilities, though. However, probably only linguists would be intrigued by such an analysis in their own therapy. I would emphasize again that whatever methods responsible analysts and therapists use, they are *not* treating dreams as communications from anything other than unacknowledged areas of the self. Does Lacan make much of his quotation from Freud? Where in Lacan did you find it? Sigrid Peterson UPenn petersig@ccat.sas.upenn.edu ------------------------------ From: "Eichler, Eckhard" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:39:03 CET Subject: Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW Dear Colleagues; Being new on the ANE, I would like to point out to you some Egyptolocial resources from Germany you might not yet know: The Heidelberg University Library collects all Egyptological literature and the entire material from 1986 (date of publication, not acquisition!) is available online through our OPAC (online public acess catalogue). Additionally, we are starting to compile resources on the World-Wide-Web. From October 1995 onwards, we will convert all Egyptological titles in a machine-readable form so that you will be able to browse through the whole title material, download it or have it printed etc. I shall be pleased about every serious comments on our activities and apologize for our menus being still all in German! The WWW-homepage of the Heidelberg University Library can be found under http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ The homepage of our special collections(Art History, Classical Archaeology and Egyptology) is: http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/sonder/Welcome.html Our OPAC (it is called HEIDI and is still mainframe-based) can be reached through our homepages or by typing: tn3270://mvs.ub.uni-heidelberg.de (this is, obviously, a telnet-connection) Our recent acquisitions list ("neuerwerbungsliste") is also available via GOPHER Just click the word "Neuerwerbungsliste" in the special collections homepage. You may browse through the titles. Short-titles are hyper-linked to the full titles. If you are looking for specific titles you my use the WAIS-Index which allows you to look for any title-words, authors etc.. http://www.urz.uni-heidelberg.de/subject/hd/fak8/aegy/ offers some minor resources and http://www.urz.uni-heidelberg.de/subjects/pointers offers you six more resources, some of which you might already know. We will expand and update our bibliographic and other information as soon as possible and look forward to any hints as to further resources or remarks, suggestions and complaints. Yours truly, Dr. Eckhard Eichler Universitaetsbibliothek Heidelberg Sondersammelgebiet AEgyptologie ------------------------------ From: rellis@cc.brynmawr.edu (Richard S. Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:09:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW Dr. Eckhard Eichler wrote: >I shall be pleased about every serious comment on our activities and >apologize for our menus being still all in German! Please don't apologize for that! And please don't translate them! Your menus might help us to persuade our students that they *must* learn German if they want to study ancient Egypt (or any other kind of Mediterranean or Near Eastern archaeology). Dick Ellis - -------------------------------------------------------- Richard S. Ellis rellis@brynmawr.edu Professor of Archaeology ph.: (610) 526-5343 (off.) Department of Classical and (610) 896-6189 (hm.) Near Eastern Archaeology fax.:(610) 526-7479 (off.) Bryn Mawr College 101 N. Merion Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899 ------------------------------ From: rellis@cc.brynmawr.edu (Richard S. Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:18:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Ancient World on TV [North America] David Meadows, in his public-spirited listing, gave us this, with the comment: >Sunday, June 25 >7.00 p.m. LOST CIVILIZATIONS >NBC This is the series premiere of something which I > came across quite by accident. The TV Guide blurb > simply describes it as "Vanished kingdoms, ancient > civilizations and cultures of the world." Should be > worth a look, although the `Big Three' have a > terrible record when it comes to handling the > ancient world. I'm afraid he's a prophet; I watched (and taped) it, and it was a piece of junk. The best part, in a way, was the marvelous irony of hearing Thomas Hoving explain that some curators are among those who encourage the plundering of the past by buying anything they can get their hands on. He should know. The next offering is to be about Lost Atlantis; one shudders. Dick Ellis - -------------------------------------------------------- Richard S. Ellis rellis@brynmawr.edu Professor of Archaeology ph.: (610) 526-5343 (off.) Department of Classical and (610) 896-6189 (hm.) Near Eastern Archaeology fax.:(610) 526-7479 (off.) Bryn Mawr College 101 N. Merion Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899 ------------------------------ From: "Jean P. Lindsay" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:42:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Ancient World on TV [North America] I agree with Prof. Ellis's judgement about the "Lost Civilizations--Egypt" program. With the kind of backing and production it had, it could have been excellent. Instead, it put out the same old "mysterious" stuff. It would have been better to tell the public _why_ the Egyptians (all of them, not just the pharaohs) lusted after immortality--their religious conceptions. And I wonder how the inhabitants of Gurna feel about their village being referred to several times as "the village of the robbers." The program also stated that we only have kings & queens & their tombs left--which is totally incorrect. The village of Deir el-Medina and the numerous publications of finds there have told us more about the ancient inhabitants than we know about most people from the 19th century. And that's just one example; there are several others. So for those of us who want to see _good_ short TV programs on Ancient Egypt, we're still stuck with John Romer's "Romer's Egypt" and "Ancient Lives." Jean Lindsay Independent Scholar ------------------------------ From: "OREL, SARA" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:03:39 CDT Subject: Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] To add to some of the comments about the tv show last night... I was not aware that all we really knew about Tutankhamun was that he had a young wife and was quite young himself (actually this brings to mind a question a student asked me this spring -- where is the best source for the historical study of Tutankhamun's reign? Has this challenge been taken up by some graduate student in the last twenty years? My sources for the actual historical events of the reign are all early 60s at the latest -- would appreciate some bibliographical help). I was also interested in the revisionist approach to the end of the ancient gods, with the destructive Christians rampaging through the temples at Philae. This is the discussion, I suppose, that comes up periodically on ARCH-L, as to how to present our subject as interesting when dealt with accurately, rather than as a "Lost civilization" (which Zahi Hawass specifically dismissed as a description, if I remember accurately). The continuity between antiquity and modern times in art, culture, and history, is as interesting to me as any of this silliness with Thomas Hoving. We have access to audiences in our courses and our museums, but the tv show undoubtedly reached as many people in one hour as I will in a lifetime of ancient art classes. A very humbling thought... I do enjoy pretty computer-generated images, and also I think we should (could?) give the show a bit of credit for avoiding the spacemen building the pyramids/sphinx which characterized the last network treatment of the subject. Sara E. Orel Division of Fine Arts Truman State University/Northeast Missouri State University Kirksville, MO 63501 FA55%nemomus@ACADEMIC.nemostate.edu ------------------------------ From: WILLEM HOVESTREYDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:45:14 +0100 (MET) Subject: E-mail address G. Bucellatti Does anyone know whether Prof. G. Bucellatti (Univ. of California) can be reached by e-mail? Thanks in advance. Willem Hovestreydt Annual Egyptological Bibliography Leiden, The Netherlands ------------------------------ From: David Coomler Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, OREL, SARA wrote: > I was also interested in the revisionist approach to the end of the > ancient gods, with the destructive Christians rampaging through the > temples at Philae. What exactly do you mean by "revisionist history" here? David ------------------------------ From: cejo@midway.uchicago.edu (Charles E. Jones) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:47:10 -0500 Subject: Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics Some years ago there was an exhibition of Freud's collection of antiquities. Issued at the same time was the catalogue (with essays): Author..... Gamwell, Lynn, and Richard Wells Title...... Sigmund Freud and Art Subtitle... His Personal Collection of Antiquities Auth Sta... Introduction by Peter Gay Place...... Binghamton and London Publisher.. State University of New York, Binghamton and The Freud Museum Date....... 1989 Collation.. 192 pages (illustrated) This volume includes a catalogue of some of the books on antiquities from the Freud collection, and thus (perhaps) a sample of what he was reading in Egyptology. - -Chuck- ------------------------------ From: mdadams@sas.upenn.edu (Matthew D Adams) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ancient World on TV With regards to last night's installment of "Lost Civilizations," did anyone else notice that the snazzy computer graphics of the interior of Philae temple had the walls and columns decorated with scenes from the tomb of Sennedjem at Deir el-Medina? Matt Adams mdadams@sas.upenn.edu ------------------------------ From: kadishg@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Egyptology: Resources from germany on the WWW On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Richard S. Ellis wrote: > Dr. Eckhard Eichler wrote: > > >I shall be pleased about every serious comment on our activities and > >apologize for our menus being still all in German! > > > Please don't apologize for that! And please don't translate them! Your > menus might help us to persuade our students that they *must* learn German > if they want to study ancient Egypt (or any other kind of Mediterranean or > Near Eastern archaeology). > > Dick Ellis > -------------------------------------------------------- > Richard S. Ellis rellis@brynmawr.edu > Professor of Archaeology ph.: (610) 526-5343 (off.) > Department of Classical and (610) 896-6189 (hm.) > Near Eastern Archaeology fax.:(610) 526-7479 (off.) > Bryn Mawr College > 101 N. Merion Avenue > Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899 > > I certainly want to endorse Dr. Ellis' comment on the absolute need for our students to learn German; there's a century and a half of valuable scholarship, not to mention what is produced each year, in German. No one will translate all those treasures for them. Gerald E. Kadish ------------------------------ From: "OREL, SARA" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:03:39 CDT Subject: Re[2]: Ancient World on TV [North America] To Ms. Orel and the list: A recent treatment on Tut, though not complete, is: Reeves, Nicholas. The complete Tutankhamun: the king, the tomb, the royal treasure / by Nicholas Reeves; forward by the Seventh Earl of Carnarvon -- London : Thames and Hudson, 1990. $40.00 (I think). I was going to take notes about the "special" last night and include them here for those (fortunate) enough not to have seen it. However, 30 seconds into the program I had been hit by 3 major errors and by then realized I ought not waste paper. Perhaps we can forgive the narrators for mauling the pronunciation of Hekanakhte and the tomb robber Amonpanefer (might it have been wise to consult an Egyptologist?) but the "content"--and I use that word unusually--could not even aspire to the higher level of "disinformation." And for those who hadn't had enough, the video version ($24.95 or so) contains footage that didn't make it onto the TV! The highspot of the episode was the readings done with the voice of the actor who plays Kern, Lt. Worf's brother, on Star Trek: Next Generation. At this point, I would not be surprised if the PC crowd were to insist that the pyramids had been build by Klingons. (They are aliens, aren't they?) Briant Bohleke Yale University bohleke@yalevm.yale.cis.edu - ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- To add to some of the comments about the tv show last night... I was not aware that all we really knew about Tutankhamun was that he had a young wife and was quite young himself (actually this brings to mind a question a student asked me this spring -- where is the best source for the historical study of Tutankhamun's reign? Has this challenge been taken up by some graduate student in the last twenty years? My sources for the actual historical events of the reign are all early 60s at the latest -- would appreciate some bibliographical help). I was also interested in the revisionist approach to the end of the ancient gods, with the destructive Christians rampaging through the temples at Philae. This is the discussion, I suppose, that comes up periodically on ARCH-L, as to how to present our subject as interesting when dealt with accurately, rather than as a "Lost civilization" (which Zahi Hawass specifically dismissed as a description, if I remember accurately). The continuity between antiquity and modern times in art, culture, and history, is as interesting to me as any of this silliness with Thomas Hoving. We have access to audiences in our courses and our museums, but the tv show undoubtedly reached as many people in one hour as I will in a lifetime of ancient art classes. A very humbling thought... I do enjoy pretty computer-generated images, and also I think we should (could?) give the show a bit of credit for avoiding the spacemen building the pyramids/sphinx which characterized the last network treatment of the subject. Sara E. Orel Division of Fine Arts Truman State University/Northeast Missouri State University Kirksville, MO 63501 FA55%nemomus@ACADEMIC.nemostate.edu ------------------------------ From: Ann Macy Roth Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lost Civilizations - Egypt I, too, watched NBC's horrible attempt to talk about ancient Egypt. Why don't they hire real Egyptologists to do this sort of thing? Surely many of us are considerably more telegenic and charming than Hoving and Fagan! Not to mention knowing how to pronounce the words. My favorite errors were Hoving's characterization of the 13 1/2" iron-bladed knife on Tutankhamun's breast as a "little tiny piece of steel"; the statement that Carter destroyed Tut's body "to get to the jewels,"; the outrageous use of a photograph of Dr. Margaret Murray's unwrapping of a mummy at Manchester to accompany the discussion of unwrapping mummies for casual entertainment; and the filming of Ptolemaic crypts (Dendera, I presume) to represent the substructure of Djoser's pyramid (even more anachronistic than Senedjem at Philae!). The worst part, however, was the very clear "all Western Egyptologists are robbers and thieves" subtext--in some ways it made us look as bad as Romer's special a few months back. Does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to what we can do to stop this constant sensationalizing attack on our field? Could ARCE condemn it? (They are the closest thing we have to a professional association, I suppose.) Could we all refuse to buy whatever cars they were advertising on it? Perhaps the organizers of this 'Americans in Egypt' exhibition that's coming up would be able to put together a video that gave a better (both more accurate and more interesting) idea of our work! Ann Macy Roth Howard University ------------------------------ From: rellis@cc.brynmawr.edu (Richard S. Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:07:07 -0400 Subject: Ancient World on TV Matt adams wrote: >With regards to last night's installment of "Lost Civilizations," did >anyone else notice that the snazzy computer graphics of the interior of >Philae temple had the walls and columns decorated with scenes from the >tomb of Sennedjem at Deir el-Medina? Not I; but it did seem to me that the columns were awfully skinny for a temple of that period. Dick Ellis - -------------------------------------------------------- Richard S. Ellis rellis@brynmawr.edu Professor of Archaeology ph.: (610) 526-5343 (off.) Department of Classical and (610) 896-6189 (hm.) Near Eastern Archaeology fax.:(610) 526-7479 (off.) Bryn Mawr College 101 N. Merion Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899 ------------------------------ From: Rachel Bernhardt Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:25:45 EDT Subject: headings, etc. Can anyone tell me what the setting request is to get rid of the incredibly LONG headings that come with mail from this list? Also, I am new to this list (although I recognize names from other related lists, and receive MANY duplicate postings), so please pardon me if this point has been made: It *really* isn't necessary to copy an ENTIRE message when you post your reply, especially on a list like this where many postings are already quite long. Rachel A. Bernhardt, Editor Office of Exhibits Central Smithsonian Institution rbernhar@sivm.si.edu ------------------------------ From: Randi Bernhardt Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:37:00 PDT Subject: German in school I hope this was the list I read this post on as I I'd like not to look foolish because this is my first post. As far as taking German in school is concerned, yes I agree that it is important. However, I don't believe the requirement is enough to allow students to understand complicated text. I am currently taking German because it is required for the graduate schools I have looked into. I am beyond the language requirement (by one semester) and was told that we have the vocabulary and grammar of a six-year-old. Surely, a child of that age cannot understand highly specialized or complicated text. If an intense knowledge of German is required to understand these texts, then it should be made clear during the course of undergraduate study that two years of this language is simply not enough. Randi Bernhardt Undergraduate in Religion Randi@rsage.org ------------------------------ From: rellis@cc.brynmawr.edu (Richard S. Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:03:55 -0400 Subject: Re: German in school Randi Bernhardt wrote: >If an intense knowledge of German is required to >understand these texts, then it should be made clear during the course of >undergraduate study that two years of this language is simply not enough. Well, I think that it *would* be enough, if the courses are fairly intense, and if you then start *reading* these texts. As with any professional field, even a native speaker would have trouble on the first sight of a complex text. Two years ought to be enough to let you start learning to read archaeology in German on your own, just as you have to learn the terminology and the concepts to be able to read it in English. Dick Ellis - -------------------------------------------------------- Richard S. Ellis rellis@brynmawr.edu Professor of Archaeology ph.: (610) 526-5343 (off.) Department of Classical and (610) 896-6189 (hm.) Near Eastern Archaeology fax.:(610) 526-7479 (off.) Bryn Mawr College 101 N. Merion Avenue Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899 ------------------------------ From: "Kendall L. Roark" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:06:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: TV portrayal of archaeology I am a student who is interested in the portrayal of archaeological work on film/ video. The recent discussion of the TV program on Egypt (especially Ann Macy Roth's comment), has formed a question for all of you proffessional archaeologists. Why don't more informed members of the field participate in such projects? More specifically, why don't proffessional archaeologists who are interested in this venue participate in such projects? Secondly, does anyone know of specific agencies or university programs that focus on this type of film/ video? Just interested, Kendall Roark klr@dana.ucc.nau.edu ------------------------------ From: kadishg@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: German in school I suspect that the problem with learning German is that one quickly falls into the hands of German teachers who cannot grasp the point that it is not necessary to learn how to speak and write German in order to learn to read it at a fairly sophisticated level quickly. There is a school of language instruction dominant now which finds that idea rather an affront to their pedagogic souls. Learning to pronounce German accurately is really the simplest part of the matter. A good instructor in German for Reading Knowledge can produce independent readers in a year. Students get the grammar fairly easily, but they need some help with the tortures of complex sentences and syntactical nightmares. But it can be done. If it takes longer, say two years, that's o.k., too. Gerald E. Kadish (kadishg@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ------------------------------ From: Randi Bernhardt Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:20:00 PDT Subject: German in school To Dick Ellis, Unfortunately I have yet to pick up a text in German about arch. and try to translate it. As of now, myself and other classmates of mine, have trouble translating children's stories. My post was in no way meant to look down upon those teaching foreign languages. I only meant to point out that at this level, I don't see how it's possible. I would think that a specialized dictionary (of arch. terms) may be necessary. I meant to offend no one. Randi Bernhardt ------------------------------ From: Peter Douglas Feinman Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: TV portrayal of archaeology Was Time Life sponsoring the program on Egypt? If so, then the program may be a commerical tie to their book series and be "archaeology" the way the interview with Michael Jackson when his album was released was "news." We seem to be better at contacting UNESCO and Washington then we are the major networks about serious archaeology. And it is scary to think how many people are reached by such shows. Peter Feinman P.S. Worf's brother should do the voice over for Thutmose III! ------------------------------ From: Eth Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:25:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: archaeology and television... I too watched the program on ancient Egypt the other night, and generally agree with most of the comments which have been expressed to date. The thing that I wish to add is that in light of recent programs on the ancient world (ie. Charlton Heston), this one was relatively good. Despite its various flaws (which most likely were only picked up by the specialists), it displayed ancient Egypt is a significantly better light than has been done before. Using a dash of romance (which this program employed liberally) may not be acceptable to some of us, but at the moment it is one of the only tools we have to solicit the interest of the public at large, who, ultimately, our existence rests upon. Ethan Watrall University of Regina Regina, Saskatchewan Canada ------------------------------ From: "John F. DeFelice Jr." Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:24:41 EST Subject: [none] Dear List Members, I would say that learning German is a difficult task, but essential. I entered graduate school at the age of 36, but found it was very rewarding, although the two semester of intensive reading courses in German were frustrating and difficult. I am able to broaden my field of sources and take part in the richness of this scholarship. In fact, learning German and French were almost as important to me as the ancient language requirements of my program. I think one of the problems is that many schools require knowledge of languages but some have no means to do them for graduate school credit. This wasn't my experience at Miami University, but other students have told me of problems they had with various other institutions. John DeFelice ------------------------------ From: Jan M Jackson Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:48:18 +0059 (EDT) Subject: Lost Civilizations program 6/25/95 (fwd) I am forwarding a copy of the message which I just posted to NBC after reading all the discussion of the program. I think I'm glad I missed it. Although I know Dateline wasn't the producer of the video, they might be willing to address the issue. If others are interested in contacting them, this is the e'mail address that I had. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:39:20 +0059 (EDT) From: Jan M Jackson To: Dateline@nbc.com Subject: Lost Civilizations program 6/25/95 I have watched Dateline do a number of topics. I would like to challenge you to take on one further one - misinformation on television. NBC aired a program on Sunday evening, 6/25, about Lost Civilizations. I am appending a file of the comments that were made by PROFESSIONALS who saw your broadcast. I am appalled that such error-laden material would be shown, when the "real thing" is so much more exciting and illuminating. I challenge you to speak with some of these scholars, and to address the issue of the romanticizing and distortion of ancient history in the media, and to offer an ACCURATE portrayal of some of these topics. There are new discoveries occurring constantly - within recent months I have heard about a replica of the Israelite 1st temple which was found on the top of Mt. Gerazim, the discovery of a new tomb complex in Egypt which is currently attributed to Rameses II's sons - there is much to learn about ourselves through the lenses of antiquity. Please do me the courtesy of a response, or feel free to respond to the list for the Ancient Near East listed in the message headers. Thank you for your attention in this disturbing matter. jjackson@world.std.com ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ From: dan%cfaps1.DECNET@cfa.harvard.edu (reply to green@cfa.harvard.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:48:59 -0400 Subject: TV portrayal of archaeology (and science in general) I have seen errors introduced into the script of almost every TV documentary on science of which I've had in-depth knowledge of the topic. Frequently this happens even when proper scientists are consulted in the planning, production, and filming stages. The blame is twofold: (1) on the TV producers for not having proper experts go over the script in the final stages of production, and (2) on those experts consulted (and even interviewed) by the TV producers, for not insisting on being allowed a look at the final script for critique. In the past, I confess that I myself sometimes fell into category (2). It really is not unreasonable, if one gives their time for consultation and/or interviews, to insist on reading the final script for a TV documentary to further improve the technical content or facts that are seen by so many people over networks. - D. Green [green@cfa.harvard.edu] ------------------------------ From: rburnham@astronomy.com (Robert Burnham (414) 798-6572) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:28:05 -0600 Subject: TV portrayal of science Dan Green makes valuable points about what happens when the media popularize a subject. Can one member of the media butt in with a comment? The particular area we (ASTRONOMY magazine) cover is the same as Dan's -- astronomy and planetary science -- but I think much of what I have to say will be true for other scientific disciplines. (Perhaps it's worth mentioning that I subscribe to this list out of a personal interest in ancient history.) Ancient history (along with astronomy, it seems) are among those topics that perennially draw public interest. Thus there's lots of media attention -- and lots of chances to screw up. From the viewpoint of an editor or science writer, what professional scientists most often forget is that our readers or viewers want to be entertained. Please understand this and take it to heart. No one is compelling the viewers to watch a program; they'll not be graded on it; it's not needed for their jobs. Moreover, they're not interested in cramming facts for the sake of acquiring knowledge. They are simply seeking recreation -- often after the kind of lousy day at the office we all have. I want to be crystal-clear here. I'm NOT defending sloppy coverage or programming, nor am I saying that the typical viewer's attitude is facts-be-damned. But scientists meeting the media would have far happier experiences if they always kept in mind that our job is basically story-telling. This doesn't have to conflict with being accurate. Unfortunately, what all too often happens is that the media fight to keep a story lively, while the scientist seems concerned foremost with getting the qualifications shaded correctly. Out of this collision of objectives comes the usual media disaster. So what can I recommend? Anyone who finds him or herself dealing with the media in their field should keep the following in mind: 1. Answer the big "So what?" question right off the bat. (Why should the viewer or reader care about what you're telling them?) 2. Expunge the passive voice from your vocabulary, voice, and writing. (This is a lot tougher than you think.) 3. Always pick the most vivid way to express something, even if some nuances suffer. 4. Don't TELL me something's really neat; SHOW me that it is. 5. Insist on final review of copy, but be available to OK it at a moment's notice. Best regards, Robert Burnham Editor, ASTRONOMY rburnham@astronomy.com (414) 798-6572 [phone] (414) 796-1142 [fax] 21027 Crossroads Circle Waukesha, WI 53187 USA ------------------------------ From: Vincent DeCaen Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics (fwd) Forwarded message: > From pdm@world.std.com Sun Jun 25 23:06:13 1995 > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 23:04:41 +0059 (EDT) > From: Peter D Manuelian > Subject: Re: ANE: Q? Freud and hieroglyphics > To: Vincent DeCaen > In-Reply-To: <199506252124.RAA21342@blues.epas.utoronto.ca> > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Vincent, > > You might be interested to know that Jan Assmann (prof. of Egyptology at > Heidelberg who just finished up a year as a Getty scholar in LA) has just > about finished a book called Moses the Egyptian. The Memory of Egypt in > Western Monotheism. An Essay in Mnemohistory. He goes into Freud's works > on Moses and has lengthy passages on Freud's knowledge of his Egyptian > sources. I doubt the book will appear for some months, but you could > write him at Heidelberg and perhaps he might be willing to share the ms. > with you. > > Peter Manuelian > MFA, Boston > sorry, I'm not that interested that I can't wait: but maybe someone else on ANE might want to see a ms?? ------------------------------ From: Laura.Werner@TIALTLI1.SMTIME.LANGATE.sprint.com Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:25:00 -0400 Subject: Ineni's tomb Does anyone know where I can find recent, color pictures of the inside of Ineni's tomb? I read that there is a depiction of early Nubian prisoners on the walls of his tomb. Thank you. Laura Werner laura.werner@tialtli1.smtime.langate.sprint.com ------------------------------ From: Jpc12243@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:16:47 -0400 Subject: Ancient World on TV - the good Very few of the programs on archaeology (or most anything else) are accurate; they're only supposed to be entertaining (and often fail at that). but ... In my early adolescence, a gentleman by the name of John Zackerley would dress-up in a vampire outfit on friday night NYC TV and in-between cutting up calliflour "brains" and jumping into the coffin that reputedly held his wife, would show old 30s and 40s horror movies. Some of those movies were the "Mummy" series. Those movies made me at twelve or thirteen curious about egypt. It grew into my forty-year insatiable curiousity about Archaeology. None of those recent programs with which we find appropriate fault were around forty years ago (or ten years ago). How i would have loved to have had a taste of them way back when. Just be happy we've got any exposure; most of my life, we haven't. Bad bait can often catch a fish. ------------------------------ From: "Jean P. Lindsay" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:50:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Just for fun The Aegean scholars are now bracing for the onslaught! ;-) Jean Lindsay. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Lester H. Cole To: aegeanet@acpub.duke.edu Subject: the coming tv attack Aegeanetters, Brace yourselves! Having destroyed Egyptology in one fell swoop, NBC and Time-Life are doing Thera, Minoan Crete, and - -- aren't we lucky? -- Atlantis next Sunday night. Even the promo had errors in it. God help academe on a night like Sunday! I think it'll only hurt when we laugh. Les Cole (lhcole@rain.org) ------------------------------ From: ncs3@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nigel Strudwick) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:51:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: TV portrayal of archaeology > > I am a student who is interested in the portrayal of archaeological > work on film/ video. The recent discussion of the TV program on Egypt > (especially Ann Macy Roth's comment), has formed a question for all of > you proffessional archaeologists. Why don't more informed members of > the field participate in such projects? More specifically, why don't > proffessional archaeologists who are interested in this venue participate > in such projects? Secondly, does anyone know of specific agencies or > university programs that focus on this type of film/ video? As one who has made some attempts to interest TV companies in this sort of thing, I have a few comments. This applies to the UK. There are several problems: 1 If you have an interested independent producer who might like to make a film, they first have to get a TV company in the UK to show some signs of interest and likely backing. See problem 2. 2 The big TV companies are only interested in things which basically mean something to them (e.g. pyramids, mummies, Tutankhamun), at least initially, and that's a big hurdle to get over. And then they seem to have a narrow idea of what might interest their viewers; it's the equivalent of semi-sensational journalism, and I'm convinced that the public are interested in a broader range of views. Unfortunately, TV people have immense influence and "call the shots". 3 You have to convince people that you could present it well. TV companies are very conservative, and like to stick with known presenters, e.g. John Romer. Our experience was that the TV companies get committed to the sensational rubbish like the Orion "mystery" or the idea of the Sphinx being older that the pyramids, and then feel that they've done their bit for the year and can't do more for Egyptology as they have to do other subjects too. One final point. If you are being interviewed for a story, you cannot have any control over which parts of your interview they present! Just lok at the Rape of Tutankhamun... Nigel Strudwick ------------------------------ End of Ancient Near East Digest V2 #107 *************************************** Back issues are available by two means: anonymous FTP at oi.uchicago.edu in pub/ane/ OR on the World Wide Web (WWW) at ftp://oi.uchicago.edu/pub/ane/