From: owner-ane To: ane-digest@oi.uchicago.edu Subject: Ancient Near East Digest V3 #110 Reply-To: Errors-To: owner-ane Precedence: bulk Ancient Near East Digest Tuesday, 12 March 1996 Volume 03 : Number 110 Re: Icosahedral shaped artifacts Re: Historical Chronology Question Re: Neo Babylonian Chronology Ka-Ra The Ancient World on Television (North America) More questions Re: wierd archeology RE:wierd archeology Bevelled-Rim Bowl. ANE DISC verb order, IVb Ethnicity and National Identity Astral Mythology Re: Alphabet Re: Ethnicity and National Identity Re: Alphabet barbie doll Re: Alphabet Re: Astral Mythology [none] ANE FYI Hebrew bibliography, II Re: Alphabet "King Tut" Hebrew Laborers Egyptology, Afrocentrism, and Popular Theories (fwd) Crackpot index (fwd) Re: Egyptology, Afrocentrism, and Popular Theories Re: Egypt in comedy? music? Re: Astral Mythology Ugaritic "letter names"???? Re: Egyptology, Afrocentrism etc. Crackpot index Egyptian vowel transliterations? Re: Astral Mythology Re: Ugaritic "letter names"???? Re: Astral Mythology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Younger Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:18:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Icosahedral shaped artifacts This is way out of my line, but you might also be interested in M. Keene, "The Lapidary Arts in Islam, an Underappreciated Tradition," _Expedition_ 24.1 (Fall 1981) 24-39, with some bibliography ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John G. Younger TEL: 919-684-2082 Dept of Classical Studies FAX: 919-681-4262 Duke University email: jyounger@acpub.duke.edu Durham, NC 27708-0103 http://www.duke.edu/web/jyounger/ ------------------------------ From: John Younger Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:42:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Historical Chronology Question May I offer some generic advice about locating basic facts? Not as a finger-wagging set of tsk-tsks, but simply because I often find that my own colleagues forget about such basic resource materials as encyclopedias (e.g., Britannica, ed. 11; World Book for pictures), the Cambridge Ancient History series (conservative but authoritative), the Farmer's Almanack (for seasonal information, conversion tables, basic history, "Great Deeds/Great People"), the Enciclopedia del Arte, L'Annee Philologique (year-by-year articles in classical studies) - -- all quite useful for locating the most basic facts (or at least facts in common currency) and for framing the next stage of one's questions. I also suggest asking primary questions of the Reference Personnel in the nearest university library -- these people are trained to locate basic research items, to browse various on-line servers, and to point you in the right direction. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John G. Younger TEL: 919-684-2082 Dept of Classical Studies FAX: 919-681-4262 Duke University email: jyounger@acpub.duke.edu Durham, NC 27708-0103 http://www.duke.edu/web/jyounger/ ------------------------------ From: John Younger Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:22:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Neo Babylonian Chronology Michael's response to Sack's response to Michael's initial chronological list is interesting; if his original query had included where he was getting his chronology and what the specific aim of his question was, I'm sure more people would have been interested and would have given the question much more thought -- I certainly would have. On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Michael Dinowitz wrote: > Correct. I want to thank all who answered my question. Dr. Sack is > perfectly right in the location of the query. As the holiday of > Purim was the other day, I wanted to look up a few dates. It seems > that the Talmud combined the kings after Evil-Merodach to make his > reign 23 years. In addition, the Talmudic reconing of 70 years was > counted from the destruction of the Temple. > But, back to the point. I was looking for the date of Achashverosh, > the king of the Purim story and father of one of the Dariuses. If > Darius allowed the Jews to finish rebuilding the Temple, his time > period should be recorded. I want to see the time line of that > period. > > Again, Thanks for all of the responses, no matter what the tone was. > > Michael Dinowitz > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John G. Younger TEL: 919-684-2082 Dept of Classical Studies FAX: 919-681-4262 Duke University email: jyounger@acpub.duke.edu Durham, NC 27708-0103 http://www.duke.edu/web/jyounger/ ------------------------------ From: Hokan Pettersson Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:21:47 +0000 Subject: Ka-Ra I have a very dear friend of mine who=B4s name is Kara. And I told her that I called her the "Spirit of the Sun God". Would that be correct description of Ka and Ra or is there a better "translation" that can be done? /Hokan ------------------------------ From: David Meadows Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:56:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Ancient World on Television (North America) The Ancient World on Television (North America) Week of March 11 to 17 Compiled from Various Sources - --------------------------------------------------------------------- This listing is also available on the www at: http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~classics/awotv.htm Be sure to check out McMaster's website while you're there! - --------------------------------------------------------------------- [note: this is a new look for the AWOTV in response to several (not many, but enough to get my attention) to put the listings in a format that can fit on a fewer pages when printed out; I now am using Eudora (a reliable editor) so this should work, in theory. I have also decided to put the `channel guide' at the end so it can be chopped off if not needed; other stuff has been added at the end as well; comments on this new format welcome] Monday, March 11 9.00 p.m. TLC ANCIENT JOURNEYS *Seven Wonders of the World* A look at the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the Temple of Diana 10.00 p.m. TLC ANCIENT WARRIORS *The Irish -- Warriors ...* The Irish take on the Celts and the Vikings 10.30 p.m. TLC MYSTIC LANDS *Burma -- Triumph of ...* This visually interesting series now focuses on Myanmar with its teak temples dangling of cliffs (or so it seems) Thursday, March 14 7.30 p.m. TLC CONNECTIONS2 *One Word* An episode of Connections which I have now missed about five times, but which takes its beginning from the word filioque 8.00 p.m. TLC THIS CENTURY *Sale of the Century* This looks potentially interesting: William Randolph Hearst was forced to sell off his huge collection of "artifacts" in a department store 8.00 p.m. PBS JOSEPH CAMPBELL AND THE POWER OF MYTH One of the PBS stations I have access to (WNED out of Buffalo) is carrying this interesting series based on interviews with Campbell himself; other stations might be carrying at other times. This episode looks at the transformation of the hero/dragonslayer motif into the Star Wars types of today 9.00 p.m. PBS JOSEPH CAMPBELL AND THE POWER OF MYTH (opening comments ditto). A look at the spiritual side of myth 9.00 p.m. A&E MYSTERIES OF THE BIBLE *Secret Mounds ...* A look at the "secret" mounds created by "prehistoric" people in North America Friday, March 15 9.30 p.m. TLC DEADLY DISEASES *The Black Death* The plague in Europe in the 1300's (erroneously included in last week's listings) 10.00 p.m. TLC DEADLY DISEASES *Britain's Fire and Fever* The effect of the plague on London society (ditto) Saturday, March 16 7.00 p.m. TLC ANCIENT JOURNEYS *Seven Wonders of the World* Repeat of Monday's programme - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Channel Guide A&E The Arts and Entertainment Channel (cable) BRAVO Bravo! A New Style Arts Channel (Canadian cable) FAM The Family Channel (pay-extra cable -- Canadian version) PBS Public Broadcastin System (U.S. National Schedule, where possible) TLC The Learning Channel (cable) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Note on TLC: TLC's evening schedule is regularly repeated on a 3-hour basis (i.e. something on at 8.00 p.m. will be rebroadcast at 11.00, something at 8.30 will be rebroadcast at 11.30, etc.) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- David Meadows dmeadows@inforamp.net << note new address! ------------------------------ From: Doug Hawk Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:20:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: More questions First, thanks to everyone who's taken the time and trouble to answer my questions regarding Imhotep and the Palermo Stone. Now I have a couple more questions, one of which might be fun for some of you. 1) While I imagine most digs in Egypt are funded by foundations, governments, or through academic institutions, is it possible today for an Egyptologist to be allowed to excavate using private funds say from a patron or his/her own resources? 2) Within in the context of archaic Egypt and the First Kingdon, what would be the most significant discovery? (This is, of course, pretty speculative and might be fun ) Thanks Doug Hawk ------------------------------ From: Lester Ness Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: wierd archeology Somehow, the Barbie doll note sounds as if it were an episode in an on-going joke.... Lester Ness lness@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: LCORCORAN@admin2.memphis.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:12:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE:wierd archeology I would like to personally thank whomever submitted the piece on the Barbie dollhead. Although it is obviously suspect (the name of the scientific center in question is actually the Smithsonian Institutin, not Institute) I have rarely laughed so hard out loud. And to think I almost submitted entries from my most recent round of World Art One exams where one student identified the Virgin of Willendorf and the Tomb of 100 Wall Paintings at Hierakonpolis which contains a motif which entered into the pharaonic repertoire --the king spiting his enemies. Lorelei H. Corcoran, The University of Memphis ------------------------------ From: kamyar abdi Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:33:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Bevelled-Rim Bowl. I'm working on a paper on the Bevelled-Rim Bowls for my Mesopotamian archaeology course. Despite considerable skimming through the literature, I failed to find out who coined the term "Bevelled-Rim Bowl". Any suggestions, references, etc? Thanks in advance. Kamyar Abdi OI-Chicago ------------------------------ From: Vincent DeCaen Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:16:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: ANE DISC verb order, IVb > From: Seth L Sanders > > To: Vincent DeCaen > > 1. Niccacci has identified a curious correlation between word order > > and the semantics/"function" of the Yiqtol a.k.a. prefixed > > conjugation: verb-initial (V1) and jussive, verb-second (V2) and indicative > The story can't continue until we've established this point, which > deserves serious consideration by every Hebraist. Niccacci is suggesting > that the section of every Hebrew grammar on "jussive" versus "indicative" > is wrong, or incomplete at least. The evidence I've checked so far (every > instance of yomar listed in Even-Shoshan's concordance) seems supportive of > N's theory, which surprised me, but there it is. right. the story's dead in its tracks. this is why we will go back and slowly and carefully take apart Niccacci (1987), and consider his results. assuming you're a bright guy, Seth, and are well-trained, and you're surprised, well...., probably the word "wrong" is not too strong. ;-) BTW, I'm not sure Niccacci sees himself making any earth-shattering claims. but I think the results are more than "surprising"..... > > x - Yiqtol > > /|\ | > > |________| > > to my knowledge, no one has tried to account for Hebrew syntax/semantics > > in this dynamic, verb-movement fashion. it does have the virtue of > > capturing the basic facts Niccacci points to. > > The problem I have with this approach is it posits an original underlying > word order that exists at some abstract cognitive level. The extreme > flexibility of x-bar theory makes it so powerful that it can redescribe, > and hence "explain", almost any syntax you want. you're more right than you know. I remember first understanding the importance of a generalized phrase structure, a.k.a. X-bar schema, and thought I was in heaven. then I learned about functional heads/projections, and realized that an unconstrained theory would have excessive power. so you're right, currently you can do just about anything, as the number of heads keeps growing..... I think you can constrain a theory in an interesting way, and the excessive power would be in check..... but that's beyond our little discussion here. > But, for example, why an > underlying V2 rather than V1 structure? first, the added semantics is associated with V1; so the assumption is that the V1, at least in the case of Yiqtol, is derived by rule from the other, in the case of Yiqtol, V2. second, the formal theory would dictate this arrangement from the general syntactic structure of Hebrew (but we'd be far too technical to get into this here). third, to start with V1, we'd either have to move the verb backwards, which is odd both theoretically and even pretheoretically; or we'd have to move a nonverbal constituent forward (which is what we all agree is going on here) to "block" the V1 jussive reading, which if you give it some thought is really odd (why would a nonverbal element be moving to affect the verb's reading, and in this case, to make a jussive into an indicative?). > > Secondly, no I don't see the immediate consequences for traditional theories > of syntax and semantics in BH (do we have one? our analyses of syntax are > often so trival...) well, "trivial" is being kind from where I'm sitting, but that's neither here nor there. we do have a theory of syntax, and gosh, it looks just like Arabic: strict VSO with the option to promote a nonverbal constituent to before the verb for "emphasis" (whatever "emphasis" means). in that case, the traditional syntactic theory will be a mirror image of what we're getting for Niccacci's findings: VSO should be neutral, but N shows that it's highly marked semantically. also, "emphasis" comes into question if V2 is basic: what could be emphatic in a neutral construction? as far as semantics goes, "trivial" is also kind. but on traditional views, the semantics inheres solely in the verb. what N shows is that semantics is affected by relative word order, which is completely unexpected on any previous account. I have called traditional approaches "morphocentric" because of their narrow focus on words to the exclusion of important matters such as word order. the view suggested by N is implicitly "compositional" as opposed to "morphocentric". on both counts, then, there is the potential to blow away the foundations upon which all current theories of BH are built. this has the effect also of depriving textlinguistics/discourse analysis of a foundation from which to proceed. and remember, we're only talking about minor syntactic matters; we haven't really touched some of the old chestnuts like "aspect". to put it mildly, N has turned traditional theories on their heads (ironically, he explicitly subscribes to many of the things that are going to be overturned, but hey ;-), that's what progress always looks like in retrospect). - ------------------------------ I figure N will supply enough material for quite some time. stay tuned... - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vincent DeCaen decaen@epas.utoronto.ca Near Eastern Studies, Religion & Culture, University of Toronto Wilfrid Laurier University - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Complete agreement is a sign of rigor mortis. --Tomas Lozano-Perez, associate director, MIT AI Lab ------------------------------ From: sinai@mindspring.com (Paul Daniels) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:12:16 -0500 Subject: Ethnicity and National Identity Could anyone suggest books or articles dealing specifically with ethnicity in the archaeological record or the issue of self understanding in terms of a national identity in the ancient near east, for the Middle Bronze to Iron 11 generally. I am familiar with Barth's "Ethnic Groups and Boundaries", 1969. Maybe something more recent, not implying that more recent in necessarily more authoritative, just more recent. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Paul Daniels (sinai@mindspring.com) ------------------------------ From: m.levi@ix.netcom.com (M.Levi ) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 23:02:22 -0800 Subject: Astral Mythology I'm investigating astral interpretations of Sumerian myths and would like to ask the group a couple of questions. Question I: Have attitudes towards astral interpretations of myths changed in recent years? Rightly or wrongly, is ANES astral-phobic? Question II: Which (if any) Sumerian myths have been interpreted astrally? References? Controversies? Kate ------------------------------ From: "Niels Peter Lemche" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:33:53 GMT +100 Subject: Re: Alphabet Joe Seger: > Ben Lyon, > Your view of the ancient world is too confined. The alphabetic system > you see Moses as inventing in the time presumably of Amenhotep III was > already in use a century or more earlier as attested by the materials > from Ras Shamrah/Ugarit on the northern Mediterranean coast! Sorry! > > Joe Seger > Mississippi State University There has also been a discussion about the stus of the Ugaritic Cuneiform alphabetic script - whether this was an original invention or an adaptation of some Phoenician or protophoenician characters. I remember an article in JNES some years ago, but don't have it at hand. NPL Niels Peter Lemche Dep. Biblical Studies University of Copenhagen Phone: 45 49 13 81 24 Fax: 45 49 13 81 28 e-mail: npl@teol.ku.dk ------------------------------ From: David Ilan Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:32 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: Ethnicity and National Identity Paul, There is a pretty broad literature on this topic by now. Here are a few examples: for ethnicity and archaeology in general start with: S.J.Shennan (ed.) 1989, Archaeological Approaches to Cultural Identity, London: Routledge. For the ANE try: K.A. Kamp and N. Yoffee, Ethnicity in Ancient Western Asia During the Early SEcond Millennium B.C. BASOR 237 (1980); and see the most recent issue of Biblical Archaeologist (Vol. 58/4) - especially the articles by Redmount andby Dever. David Ilan Hebrew Union College - Jerusalem ------------------------------ From: "M.F.J. Baasten" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:04:27 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Alphabet > There has also been a discussion about the stus of the Ugaritic > Cuneiform alphabetic script - whether this was an original invention > or an adaptation of some Phoenician or protophoenician characters. I > remember an article in JNES some years ago, but don't have it at hand. > > Niels Peter Lemche A.G. Lundin, "Ugaritic writing and the origin of the Semitic consonantal alphabet", _Aula Orientalis_ 5 (1987) 91-99. Is this what you had in mind? --Martin Baasten ========================================================== Martin F.J. Baasten - Department of Hebrew, Aramaic and Ugaritic Languages and Cultures - University of Leiden P.O.B. 9515 - NL-2300 RA Leiden - Tel.: +31-71.527.2948 Fax: +31-71.527.2939 - email: Baasten@rullet.LeidenUniv.nl ========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Lawson_Stone@ms1.ats.wilmore.ky.us (Lawson Stone) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 06:45:02 -0500 Subject: barbie doll I am happy you enjoyed the barbie doll piece, which I came across browsing the far corners of the internet mailing list world. In light of the long ANE in music thread and my own recent education concerning the non-technical/generalist nature of the list, I thought it'd be fun. Also works wonderfully in a lecture as a piece of comic relief. - -- ------------------------------ From: Alan Cooper Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 05:46:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Alphabet At 08:33 AM 3/11/96 +100, NPL wrote: >There has also been a discussion about the status of the Ugaritic >Cuneiform alphabetic script - whether this was an original invention >or an adaptation of some Phoenician or protophoenician characters. I >remember an article in JNES some years ago, but don't have it at hand. > This is an important point. Niels is referring to the article by Windfuhr in JNES 1970, in which the author argued that the Ugaritic alphabet was not derived from the linear alphabet, but represents arbitrary combinations of cuneiform signs (one vertical, two verticals, three verticals, etc.). Segert adopts that position in his grammar. The alternative view, which is that the Ugaritic alphabet presupposes and imitates the linear letter-forms (as well as retaining their order), is advocated at length in Dietrich/Loretz's Die Keilalphabete, a book that is well worth perusing. Probably the most important earlier statement of that view is in Franz Rosenthal's review of Gordon's Ugaritic Handbook in Orientalia 1949. In my judgement, the Windfuhr/Segert position is incorrect; the linear alphabet was already in existence when the Ugaritic alphabet was developed. Further evidence to that effect comes from the Babylonian renderings of the Ugaritic letter names, which appear (for the most part) to follow the acrophonic principle. Alan Cooper, HUC-JIR ------------------------------ From: avigdor horovitz Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:26:21 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: Astral Mythology Dear Kate, I'm not too up on the question of astral myths, but I think B. Alster is still into it. Look at his article in the S. N. Kramer Festschrift in AOAT. Victor Hurowitz ------------------------------ From: William W Howard Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 09:44:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [none] Did anyone work on the moving of Abu Simbel or know anyone how worked on the moving of Abu Simbel William Howard ------------------------------ From: Vincent DeCaen Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:13:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: ANE FYI Hebrew bibliography, II another entry under the "enigma of the Biblical Hebrew verbal system" - ------------------------ Shulman, Ahouva. 1996. "The Use of Modal Verb Forms in Biblical Hebrew Prose." Ph.D. diss., U of Toronto. [Revell supervisor] - ------------------------- abstract In Biblical Hebrew two sets of verb forms are used: indicative and modal. The modal system consists of imperative, jussive and cohortative forms. Only imperative forms constitute a morphologically distinct category. Jussive and cohortative forms are not always morphologically distinct from the indicative imperfect. There has been no attempt to describe the function of modal forms based solely on a study of those forms which are formally marked as modal. This study is based on forms which show a formal modal/indicative distinction, and the contexts in which they occur. The corpus used for this study is the books of the _Pentateuch_ and _Former Prophets_ (excluding the poetic material). ..../continues with two more paragraphs..../...... [no doubt relevant to the discussion of Niccacci's Yiqtol; BTW, Niccacci does not recognize more than one Yiqtol *form*, which is baffling to me, but hey....] - ---------------------------- I'm not sure if Ahouva is on email, but those interested could contact her supervisor at jrevell@epas.utoronto.ca - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vincent DeCaen decaen@epas.utoronto.ca Near Eastern Studies, Religion & Culture, University of Toronto Wilfrid Laurier University - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Complete agreement is a sign of rigor mortis. --Tomas Lozano-Perez, associate director, MIT AI Lab ------------------------------ From: Seth L Sanders Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:14:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Alphabet On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Niels Peter Lemche wrote: > > There has also been a discussion about the stus of the Ugaritic > Cuneiform alphabetic script - whether this was an original invention > or an adaptation of some Phoenician or protophoenician characters. I > remember an article in JNES some years ago, but don't have it at hand. The script, like Sumerian (see the recent works of Robert Englund on writing at Uruk), does not seem to fit the language precisely; e.g. the presence of a spirant d grapheme where that phoneme seems to have collapsed in the actual language. I'm not sure what the arguments for a Phoenician-area source are other than the fact that none of the main coastal sites have been subject to a through modern excavation. Seth L. Sanders Dept. of Near Eastern Studies The Johns Hopkins University ------------------------------ From: "Margaret Schroeder" Date: 11 Mar 1996 12:15:22 U Subject: "King Tut" Subject: Time:10:48 AM OFFICE MEMO "King Tut" Date:3/11/96 To the best of my (admittedly faulty) recollection, the following are the liquid lyrics of Steve Martin's 1970s presentation of "King Tut," performed on Saturday night live and elsewhere. It was released as a 45-rpm record, and perhaps also on an LP (I have the 45 somewhere as a reminder of a misspent youth). I am sure I am missing some lines, but there are the bon mots I can recall on the spur of the moment. Song performed by Martin in gold lame kilt, headress, etc. Band and back-up singers to be suitably attired as well. If possible, large "King Tut-type" sarcophagus as back of stage, which opens during number to reveal saxiphonist who then does a solo. As I recall, at least one back-up singers was worshipping a blender at one point as well..... When he was a young man, He'd never thought he'd see People stand in line To see the boy king. Dancin' by the Nile (Disco Tut) The Ladies loved his style (Rockin' Tut) Rockin' 45 (Rockin' Tut) He ate a crocodile Gave his life for tourism. Golden idols, (Tut, Tut) He's a Egyptian ! (Tut, Tut) They're sellin' you. King Tut Buried with a donkey, He's my favourite honky. Now, when I die Now don't think I'm a nut Don't want no fancy funeral, Just one like old King Tut! He could have won a Grammy, Buried in his jammies Born in Arizona, Moved to Babylonia. He was born in Arizona Got a condo made of stone-a King Tut. ------------------------------ From: HXDF03A@prodigy.com (MS TOBI B REITER) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:03:59 EST Subject: Hebrew Laborers There has been a controversy in our office of late. It's a heated debate over the issue of Jewish laborers in Ancient Egypt -- specifically the construction of the temples Karnak and Luxor. Does anyone have any evidence on this subject or care to share any speculations? Thanks -- we need to put this issue to rest and get back to work around here! ------------------------------ From: Troy Sagrillo Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:22:13 -0500 Subject: Egyptology, Afrocentrism, and Popular Theories I know I'm going to open a huge can o' worms with this, but after reading Roth's 2 articles in NARCE concerning Afrocentrism and "conventional" Egyptology, I am wondering what the best approach is to take with this issue. I have never seen a book-length response written to answer the extreme positions taken by the Afrocentricists (Diop, van Sertima, Asante, et al.)--only a few book reviews here and there. Even Bruce Williams' "Lost Pharaohs" theory still gets plenty of airing in the Afrocentric world. Despite this, scholars can easily debunk such theories. The same goes for "TLC" theories such as the Orion Mysteries, Ramessess II=Sheshek of the Bible, &c. I understand there is a new book out called _Not Out of Africa_ that dismisses the Afrocentric approach and show the dangers of it, but I've been told that the author is not an Egyptologist and makes a weak case (haven't seen it for myself yet so I don't have an opinion). As a point of dicussion, I ask, is not purpose of scholarship to educate? Or is it just a matter of no interest/time/whatever in addressing such issues (both Afrocentric and "TV" theories)? Or is it fear of being labelled as a racist for disagreeing with the PC line (a reasonable fear to be sure!)? Is there a point to any of this, or is Egyptology just an interesting pass-time that some of us have the good fortune to get paid for? Is there a "duty" to the general public? Just wondering, Troy Sagrillo University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: Lester Ness Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:19:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: (fwd) Crackpot index (fwd) Here's another bit of humor that I found somewhere on usenet -- I forget where, now. With a few changes, it's as relevant to archaeology as to physics. Lester Ness lness@indiana.edu | THE CRACKPOT INDEX | A simple method for rating potentially | revolutionary contributions to physics. | |1) A -5 point starting credit. |2) 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false. |3) 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous. |4) 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent. |5) 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful |correction. |6) 5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results |of a widely accepted real experiment. |7) 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those |with defective keyboards). |8) 10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally |misguided (without good evidence). |9) 10 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Einstein, or |claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided |(without good evidence). |10) 10 points for pointing out that one has gone to school, as if this |were evidence of sanity. |11) 20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize. |12) 20 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Newton or |claim that classical mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without |evidence). |13) 20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if |they were fact. |14) 20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined) |ridicule accorded to ones past theories. |15) 30 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Galileo, |claims that the Inquisition is hard at work on ones case, etc.. |16) 30 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is |engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent ones work from gaining its |well-deserved fame, or suchlike. |17) 40 points for claiming one has a revolutionary theory but |giving no concrete testable predictions. - -- Lester Ness lness@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: sidd@umich.edu (Gary Beckman) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:31:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Egyptology, Afrocentrism, and Popular Theories Concerning _Not Out of Africa_, while Mary Lefkowitz is not an Egyptologist, she is a well respected Classicist, a qualification very relevant to the "Black Athena" issue. In any event, she has also edited a volume _Black Athena Revisited_ (University of North Carolina Press)--which I have not yet seen--reportedly a collection of essays by various scholars on this topic. Presumably there will be one or more Egyptologists represented. Gary Beckman Near Eastern Studies University of Michigan home address & phone: 140 North Seventh Street Ann Arbor, MI 48103 313-668-6877 ------------------------------ From: geraldsmith@juno.com (Gerald A Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:33:44 PST Subject: Re: Egypt in comedy? music? Steve Martin wore the Egyptian costume for his song, "King Tut." It actually made the charts back in the 1970s(?). Gerald Smith geraldsmith@juno.com ------------------------------ From: Bozkirk@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:03:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Astral Mythology A clarification. Was Kate asking about myths of the heavens or about astral projection etc used as a method to interpret Sumerian myths. My hunch was that it was the latter. William ------------------------------ From: Peter Daniels Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:25:48 -0600 Subject: Ugaritic "letter names"???? If the table of Ugaritic letters paired with cuneiform signs gives the "letter names" as known from the Septuagint more than 1000 years later (this was Cross & Lambdin's position in the BASOR discussion ca. 1955), then why didn't the scribe write out the entire name? I concur with my teacher Gelb on this point: acrophony is greatly overvalued in discussing script history. (For some implications, see my article in the 1991 Leslauy Festschrift.) - --PTD ------------------------------ From: Constanze Witt Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:38:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Egyptology, Afrocentrism etc. Troy you do open a can of worms! I cannot speak to the comparatively low profile of the many academic responses to the issue, but you do touch on the educational context, and in that respect my own experience has been that I am extremely reluctant to dash cold water on the burning enthusiasm of many students (undergrads) new to ancient studies in general. Afrocentrist programs may be infuriating, but they have unquestionably exposed many students to the ancient world in a way that makes them feel that antiquity has something to do with them and their lives. The challenge for me (I do not speak for this University!) has been to encourage that fascination and their desire to learn, while at the same time broadening their view of the ancient world, demonstrating how narrow and inadequate it is to see "Africa" as some monolithic entity, emphasizing interactions between diverse but interconnected ancient cultures, gently maintaining that race and ethnic identity are fluid cultural constructs and thus arguing that all ancient ethnic groups and their accomplishments have something to do with and "relevance" to a modern student, and suggesting that arguments based on demonstrable facts are more powerful and thus more interesting than simplistic fabrications. Purists may object to this relativist approach, but to me it's more important that I haven't lost a student yet ... Of course, I'm an art historian and classical archaeologist, and thus have much less invested in the issue than others on the list. BTW, the author of the _Not Out of Africa_ book you mention is Mary Lefkowitz, a highly respected scholar in classics. Has anyone read it yet? Cheers Constanze ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Constanze Witt | McIntire Department of Art Charlottesville VA 22903 | University of Virginia Tel (804) 924-6123 | Fayerweather Hall Fax (804) 924-3647 | Internet: constanze@virginia.edu | URL: http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~umw8f/Cze/cv.html | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Peter Daniels Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:42:25 -0600 Subject: Crackpot index Besides the 17 categories for which crackpot points are awarded in the message transmitted by Lester Ness, couldn't you grant at least a few point s to every author who puts "Ph.D." after their name on the fromt cover of a book? (My prime candidate is Robert K. Logan, Ph.,D., as in *The Alphabet Effect*.) ------------------------------ From: Pat-Chesney@easy.com (Pat Chesney) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:58:55 -0600 Subject: Egyptian vowel transliterations? In Egyptian transliterations, when the name of the god Amon/Amun is reflected in a Pharaoh's name, such as Amenophis/Amenhotep, the vowel "e" is used instead of "o" or "u". Is there a standard of usage for Egyptian transliteration of vowels? How can we remain consistent when we publish Egyptian names? (Another example is "Aten" or "Aton" with Akhenaten/Akhenaton.) Thank you for your help. Any sources to quote would be appreciated also. Pat Chesney Pat-Chesney@easy.com Waco, Texas ------------------------------ From: m.levi@ix.netcom.com (M.Levi ) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:05:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Astral Mythology >A clarification. Was Kate asking about myths of the heavens or about >astral projection etc used as a method to interpret Sumerian myths. My >hunch was that it was the latter. > >William I should have defined my terms more carefully because a number of people have asked the same question. William's hunch is correct. Specifically, I refer to astral interpretations of myths concerned with gods -- for instance, Enki's Journey to Nippur, Enlil and Ninlil, Enki & the World Order, Enki and Ninhursag, etc. An astral interpretation might involve assigning astral identifications to deities, interpreting a journey as taking place in an astral rather than a terrestrial setting, or assuming that within the context of myth references to stags, lions, bisons, scorpions, sheep, chariots and so forth refer to constellations rather than everyday objects. I'd like to get a feel for how the group views this approach. Well, the Pan-Babylonianists did it way back when and heaped infamy upon themselves. Has there been any work since then along these lines? Kate ------------------------------ From: avigdor horovitz Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:19:50 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: Ugaritic "letter names"???? On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Peter Daniels wrote: > > If the table of Ugaritic letters paired with cuneiform signs gives the "letter > names" as known from the Septuagint more than 1000 years later (this was Cross > & Lambdin's position in the BASOR discussion ca. 1955), then why didn't the > scribe write out the entire name? > > I concur with my teacher Gelb on this point: acrophony is greatly overvalued > in discussing script history. (For some implications, see my article in the > 1991 Leslauy Festschrift.) > > --PTD > Perhaps it would be of interest to those discussing letter names that Moshe Garsiel (Bar-ilan) recently discussed this topic in an article in VT(?). He points out that in certain acrostic Psalms the first words of some lines are identical or similar to the name of the lettes. So in Psalm 145 the ayin verse starts eyney kol eleka yesabberu. The samek verse starts somek YHWH lekol hannopelim. The yod verse starts yoduka YHWH kol ma`aseka. FOr sadi we have sadiq YHWH bekol ma`asaw. Avigdor Hurowitz Dept of Bible and ANE Ben Gurion University Beer Sheva, ISRAEL ------------------------------ From: avigdor horovitz Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:25:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: Astral Mythology On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, M.Levi wrote: > >A clarification. Was Kate asking about myths of the heavens or about > >astral projection etc used as a method to interpret Sumerian myths. My > >hunch was that it was the latter. > > > >William > > > I should have defined my terms more carefully because a number of > people have asked the same question. > > William's hunch is correct. Specifically, I refer to astral > interpretations of myths concerned with gods -- for instance, Enki's > Journey to Nippur, Enlil and Ninlil, Enki & the World Order, Enki and > Ninhursag, etc. An astral interpretation might involve assigning > astral identifications to deities, interpreting a journey as taking > place in an astral rather than a terrestrial setting, or assuming that > within the context of myth references to stags, lions, bisons, > scorpions, sheep, chariots and so forth refer to constellations rather > than everyday objects. > > I'd like to get a feel for how the group views this approach. Well, > the Pan-Babylonianists did it way back when and heaped infamy upon > themselves. Has there been any work since then along these lines? > > > > > Kate > > Dear Kate, The Alster article I referred you to previously seems to be in line of what you seek. Also you should look at Heimpel's short Undena monograph on Ishtar's Descent. I think you'll find something there of interest. Avigdor Hurowitz> > ------------------------------ End of Ancient Near East Digest V3 #110 *************************************** Back issues are available by two means: anonymous FTP at oi.uchicago.edu in pub/ane/ OR on the World Wide Web (WWW) at ftp://oi.uchicago.edu/pub/ane/